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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:44 pm • # 1 
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I noticed yesterday when I was at fly fish texas, watching several people and their casting that on their lines, they lay out real nice and the finishing touch is the leader rolling over and the fly hitting the water.

On my lightweight equipment I have noticed that over 50% of the time my floatline and fly hit to water at the same time.

I am assuming this is a casting issue. Can some one give me some advice?

I know for panfish presentation isn't everything but of course I want to do it right.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:04 pm • # 2 
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You can get your fly line, leader and fly to land on the water at the same time more than half the time? Sounds like your an excellent caster to me.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:47 pm • # 3 
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Who cares about getting it "right". All I care about is whether the fish like it or not. And since they can't see the cast or how the line hits the water, what difference does it make how the cast looks? :applause :applause


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:51 pm • # 4 
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Actually, the fly, leader, and line should really land simultaneously. That's a perfect cast. The leader 'rolling over' doesn't necessarily mean it should roll like a roll cast on the surface of the water. It should just "unfold" completely.

I'm with Dave, it sounds like you've got an excellent cast...at least half the time ;)

I used to be really self-conscious about my casting but after taking some lessons I realized a lot of the more experienced fishermen I used to admire didn't really give me good casting advice and, it turns out, aren't very good casters themselves. Plus, everyone has their own style. Personally, I'd take yours over theirs.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:15 pm • # 5 
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Not arguing with anything said thus far. If you want your line to hit the water before the cast rolls out you can achieve this a few different ways. One is to angle your back cast slightly upward then carry your forward cast over slightly downwards towards the water as opposed to parallel to it. Another is to simply push your rod tip down towards the water on your forward cast. Instead of stopping your forward cast pause it enough to create a loop then drift your rod tip down towards the water and the line will follow. You can play around with it a bit, comes in handy at times dealing with light line and strong winds.

J


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:38 pm • # 6 
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I would agree with Jasonbu ....adding keeping the rod straight up on the cast and slowing down the forward stroke some, it should produce a better loop therefore putting the leader and fly on the surface softer and more natural ... Tough to critique without actually see the cast,.....best advice tho is from my good bud ...
Clifford ....if your catching fish and they like it ..who cares .. This isn't a fly casting contest ... Your doing something right....keep up the good work ...

Paul


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:21 pm • # 7 
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I usually try to splat my bug onto the water to get the Bream and Bass attention, but then I'm a unrefined warmwater flycaster whos silly enough to chase Bream and Bass with a tiny little stick and a fat line ::)

And I Enjoy the Hell Out of It :D


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:27 pm • # 8 
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Based upon some of the previous responses, I would assume that I've been doing it wrong all these years, as my line and leader almost always "touch down" prior to my fly. (On a good cast anyway.) I'm not talking about "slapping the water" here. I'm saying that my line, leader, and fly will roll out above the water's surface and then fall to it. And when they do, the fly is usually the last to "touch down".

So unless I'm "drilling holes" in water, looking for an intentional "splat", or executing a "tuck cast", if I get the cast I want, my line and leader will land first, with the "weightless" fly gently "floating" to the water's surface afterwards. Not all together, and certainly not "fly first".

If this doesn't occur, I feel like I screwed up, and more times than not it is because I have my forward cast targeted "too low", or made a bad backcast. If I'm after a gentle presentation, which 90% of the time I am, I strive to have the fly float to the water of its own accord. The best way for me to do that is to ensure that my "backcast" is directed ±180° from where I want my forward cast to go, and to ensure that the target for my forward cast is "high" enough to allow the full length of line I have out (or that I'm going to be shooting) to completely unroll before contacting the water's surface. This forward cast "target" even applies to roll casts and single-hand spey casts I use. Both of which the forward casts "roll out" above the water's surface and not on it if I executed them correctly.

I do agree with Cliff. If the fly is "out there" and you are catching the fish you want, you are casting good enough. At least to fish.

But speaking for myself, I enjoy casting as well, and in learning just how much I can (and can't) do with a fly rod. So I do find some pleasure in learning techniques and "tricks" to assist in that endeavor. Not a few of which have come in mighty handy when fishing.

Jasonbu's comments also make sense to me, as he is talking about, "If you want your line to hit the water before your cast rolls out.."

But aside from that, I'm not sure I understand the OPs issue, and I find myself confused by some of what has been presented. So like the OP I'm also looking for further enlightenment.

---David


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:46 pm • # 9 
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I agree with David......My presentation got a lot better when I aimed my forward cast at a point 2 feet above the spot I wanted my fly to land. I like it when My line unrolls and then lightly falls onto the water. Distance, accuracy and presentation
is what's it all about..........(That and having fun + catching fish)............Don in SC


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:48 pm • # 10 
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Flflash ... Are you kidding me ...unrefined warm-water fly caster ...... silly enough to chase bream and bass ... That's
Great sport my friend catching those great fighting panfish on a fly rod ...thats all we do down here In so florida ....the louder the splat the better ......and many ULFF enjoy the hell out of it ....welcome to the splat club ....

Paul ;)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:14 pm • # 11 
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When I use a nymph, I try to drop the fly first. At least in theory, the fly has a better chance of hitting the bottom before the line starts pulling it.

If I'm using a dry, the fly usually follows the line (I was told this was a bad practice).

I've never attended a fly casting school; just a casting clinic offered by our club several times. So my casting is good enough to catch a few fish, that's about it.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:56 pm • # 12 
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For the record I'm not taking sides on this one, I feel the conditions dictate the best possible presentation. I'm a warm water guy at heart but I often see fish reacting negatively to a splash. I think all to often warm water species get thrown into this pool of "stupid fish, presentation doesn't matter, eat anything that moves". Well, not always. I have landed my fair share of stupid fish and I have enjoyed every minute. Alternatively, I have seen many Largemouth as well as Bluegill swim away from aggressive presentations as well as turn there nose at flies time and time again until you put one in front of them they flat can't ignore. Its what keeps things interesting. Different presentations work in different areas chasing different species. For that reason I think its important to learn how to "drill holes" one second and float like a butterfly sting like a bee the next.

I have enjoyed reading all the different responses. End of the day there is more than one way to skin a cat and local conditions are paramount!

J


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:03 am • # 13 
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If my back cast has a clean place to be, in other words, I am not having to tower cast above bushes behind me or place my back cast into as small a target as my forecast, where I can just relax and be myself, I am a notorious side arm caster even with a long stick. The fly line is no higher than my head at anytime and I can lay the line out about chest high, let it straighten out and fall to the surface..........OK, OK at least this is what I attempt......but all too often, the line lands with a splash and rolls the leader on out from there, or j hooks something terrible, or lands in a pile when I didn't want a pile, or the fly hooks on my nail knot....or what ever the hell else can go wrong.....but I try to land everything as close at the same time as I can get or at least where I wanted it to go.....but it seems the longer I fly fish, the worse I get at it. I wonder if I was much better 20 years ago.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:24 am • # 14 
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I find that a sidearm cast helps a lot. Think of casting the loop, not the fly. It is difficult to get a slow moving loop out faster than gravity drops the line. More speed counteracts gravity, but you really have to aim high or you slam the tip down.

Fiddle with your leader length and tippet. You want the leader to turn over briskly, with only the tippet acting as a parachute. In fact, I would adjust the leader without the fly and then adjust the tippet to the fly to be cast. Sometimes you must add a couple of feet.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:28 am • # 15 
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Thanks guys. I just always thought that was how it was supposed to be, the fly being the last thing to hit the water. I know for bream and bass fishing it really didn't matter and may be desirable but I guess I am always looking to perfect my cast.

On a 4wt or larger I don't seem to have a problem as it rolls out quite nicely.

Appreciate all the pointers and advice. I can see Cliffs point well as anytime I have ever fished with him he always catches more fish, lol


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:51 am • # 16 
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The holy grail of presentation is for the fly to touch down before or simultaneously with the line tip (unless you're roll casting). Rods that could cast (custom ordered) 3wt lines (like the Paul Young Perfectionist) were highly prized among the better fishermen of the 50's and 60's. That's for dry fly fishing on (thin) moving water with small flies--the kind of fishing UL was originally designed for. Most of us probably spend most of our time on lakes and ponds fishing for panfish with sinking flies or foam bugs though, and use 0-3wt gear for the fun of catching small fish on UL tackle. A splashy presentation can actually be advantageous for that fishing, but being able to do it "right" is a great skill and could mean the difference between catching and not catching some days. To turn a perfect presentation into a rolling or splashy one, simply make a few "mistakes" --overpower the forward cast a little, lower the rod tip too much, use tippet too light or heavy for the fly and/or line, use a heavier line or one with a steep taper or thick tip, drop your backcast a bit ... there are innumerable paths to a "bad" presentation. The side benefits could be hang ups, broken off flies, and "wind" knots, with which all of us are too familiar, I'm sure.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:18 pm • # 17 
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I have read that before.....it is ideal for the fly to land before the line, but I am not sure if Newton is going to allow that to happen very easily especially with a tiny dry fly as they can make a pretty good parachute. Thinking back on my casting, it seems a good cast has the tippet and fly land just a sniffle after the line but I think it is best to get them to land as close together as possible as once the line is on the water, it is off and flowing downstream yet the fly is still falling. This gets really hard when one is casting say 60-70 feet to wild Rainbows on the Henry's Fork Railroad Ranch which is why you see so many fishermen presenting dry flies downs stream where they can cast the distance, then quickly lift the rod back to 11:00 am and let the line, leader and fly pile up well above the target then drift to the target - fly first. I guess it might also boil down to the water. Spring Creek fishing with small dry flies takes some finesse and thought. Casting terrestrials on pocket water or against the banks on small streams is best if you bump up the aggression a bit, making the bug bounce or splat which can trigger trout to 'look up'.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:54 pm • # 18 
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I don't think I've ever heard of anyone who could get a simultaneous presentation at 60-70 feet. That's another presentation "mistake," wading too little and casting too far. Dry flies often do like to float in the air, that's true, but something like a #24 ant isn't going to parachute too well, if the tippet and line tip match. I've always been a bit suspicious that actual simultaneous presentations, if subjected to video analysis, would still show the line and leader touching first, if only by a small fraction of a second (unless you overpower the cast and curve the fly back under the tippet, which can be tricky with tiny flies). Assuming fish aren't equipped with chronometers as well as calipers, it probably doesn't matter too much, so long as the fly gets their attention before they see or hear the line.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:18 pm • # 19 
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Cross Creek wrote:
I don't think I've ever heard of anyone who could get a simultaneous presentation at 60-70 feet. That's another presentation "mistake," wading too little and casting too far.


Often on the Railroad Ranch on the Henry's Fork, 60-70 feet is as close as you are going to get and it likely took a fair bit of time to get set up for a cast. I would say, that a typical cast on that river is at least that far, and with a leader that is over 12 feet long and a dry fly you cannot possible see out there so the hook set is mostly on a guess.

Last Fall during the Mahogany Dun hatch, It took me 20 minutes to get myself in position to rifle a 60 foot cast with the Redington CT 863 (kinda light for the task but do able) on a 20" plus rising Rainbow. He took the fly on the first cast, made some crazy thrashing on the surface, ran and jumped, then dove into the weeds and broke me off. But I understand few other waters are like the Henry's Fork/Railroad Ranch.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:32 pm • # 20 
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You are going to line any fish the line floats over. I have seen fish spooked before the lines lands, so you may be flush out of luck no matter what you do. I suspect most of us simply choose to present badly. Your best bet may be to present down and across fan casts, lengthening to fly with each float. I think broken water is the angler's friend. Some of the best hookups come when the fish swims to the fly as it approaches.

What I do is pick the very best spot and cast there first, scaring every trout between me and the spot and thereby alerting the target fish. Fan casts get old.


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