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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 1:52 pm • # 1 
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I've started tying more and more of my own leaders and have noticed the Surgeons knots I've used on larger diameter leaders dosent seem to have the same strength on the lighter leaders I'm making now. When I test the knots by pulling the line will break in the knot leaving a curly at the end of each line?
What kind of knots do you recomend using? I'm using 16lb to 10lb to 4lb florocarbon line is it the florocarbon causing this problem? I normaly use mono but these leaders are for some really picky fish in an Ultra clear spring run and I'm thinking the floro will be less visible and yet stronger in the smaller diameters?

This spring run is starting to get to me I can see really nice fish but their extremely wary and take alot of stealth longer than normal pinpoint casts and a very small realistic streamer/crawfish imitation. This water is so clear you can bottom in 8 foot of water.


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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 1:35 pm • # 2 
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The problem may be the big difference in the diameter of the two lines you are joining. You could make a few extra turns in your surgeons knot (4 Turns Total) or tie an albright knot to join the unevenly sized lines together.

http://www.animatedknots.com/albright/i ... dknots.com


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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 11:35 pm • # 3 
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I use blood knots when building leaders. There is a limit to how much of a difference between line diameters though, which might be the real problem you're experiencing. You're stepping quite a bit from 10# to 4#.


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 10:35 am • # 4 
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I have used this knot for stepping down heavy leader with great success. Basically it is a modified Davy's knot but it is super small and goes through the guides easily, especially with the heavier tippet material. Try it and I think you will like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne0Anz5wKeU


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 12:29 pm • # 5 
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Thanks guys I'll give it all a try, it's become frustrating.

One other thing is the shelf life of Florocarbon much lower than Mono? I have no idea how old this Florocarbon is and I'm noticing I can snap even the 10lb easier than what I would think?


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 3:12 pm • # 6 
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I've found fluoro to last quite a long time versus mono, but I mostly use mono these days just because I tend to prefer the maxima, green 4-pound stuff so much. It's really limp and is extremely strong in my experience. I'll also use the 6-8 too sometimes, but that's not usually on my UL rod ;).

For knots I like the uni-to-uni quite a bit, using 1 or more turns in the lighter line versus the heavier one when tying it.

The blood knot is another good one, but is harder to learn IMO.

For just tying tippet onto a leader (or making a loop) I often use the 3-turn surgeon's knot. It's easy as pie and reliable. Some people argue whether to use blood or surgeons. Both work great to me so long as you tied them well. Obviously the greater the difference in line dia, the more difficult it is to use a blood knot...surgeons or seaguar works well here.

That said, for most warmwater species I just tie a lever leader of mono in 4-8 pound test and from 5-10' depending on conditions and what I'm targeting.


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 6:05 pm • # 7 
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Cowpokey wrote:
I use blood knots when building leaders. There is a limit to how much of a difference between line diameters though, which might be the real problem you're experiencing. You're stepping quite a bit from 10# to 4#.

X2

You may want to look for a leader formula.


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 6:11 pm • # 8 
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Joe C wrote:
I have used this knot for stepping down heavy leader with great success. Basically it is a modified Davy's knot but it is super small and goes through the guides easily, especially with the heavier tippet material. Try it and I think you will like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne0Anz5wKeU

It looks a lot easier than tying blood knots. I may try it next time I make my leader (I'm using furled these days).


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 4:52 pm • # 9 
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Thanks everyone, I bought known New florocarbon changed my formula to 16-8-4 using 3ft of each and praticed then used the knot Joe suggested....I think I have a Winner! We'll see when I get to go fishing tomorrow afternoon, it's been 3 days since I fished and I'm getting a bit antsy :D


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 7:22 pm • # 10 
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For stepping down, you need to up the number of turns in your surgeons knot.

2 turns holds 59lb down to about 30,
3. 30 to 10
4. 10 to 4
5. 4 and under


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 7:51 pm • # 11 
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Hi Stone -- I've never seen that before (doing 3+ turns on a surgeons).

That said, it would seem to make sense. I've done some non-scientific testing and the 3-turn seems stronger than the 2-turn to me, so I've always done 3 turns. I may have to try additional turns.... :)


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 2:48 am • # 12 
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As tippet diameter decreases, constriction pressure under load within the knot increases, by adding extra turns, pressure is more distributed and slippage is minimised.

The curly pig tails are evidence that your knot is cutting itself in the middle of the knot due to the high constriction pressure.


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 5:34 am • # 13 
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Stonepark wrote:
As tippet diameter decreases, constriction pressure under load within the knot increases, by adding extra turns, pressure is more distributed and slippage is minimised.

The curly pig tails are evidence that your knot is cutting itself in the middle of the knot due to the high constriction pressure.


That makes sense and fairly well represents what I'm seeing happen, the line is actually cutting itself inside the structure of the knot not on either side of the knot.

I think I'll tie up a couple more leaders now using the Surgeons knot and the number of turns listed, can't hurt. Thanks for the input!

"For stepping down, you need to up the number of turns in your surgeons knot.

2 turns holds 59lb down to about 30,
3. 30 to 10
4. 10 to 4
5. 4 and under"


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 6:30 pm • # 14 
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I've switched to the blood knot this year and so far it's served me well with no problems at all.

I did purchase a Dennison blood knot tool and it worked so good I bought a second just so I'll always have a spare. :lol

Here's a link to the tool, but a google search will find other suppliers who also have it. I can say I've had good service from MRO, though.
https://www.madriveroutfitters.com/p-376-dennison-blood-knot-tyer.aspx

I use 5 turns for attaching a 3X tippet to a 1X leader and/or a 5X tippet to a 3X leader. Be sure to really cinch it down tight! Wet it well and keep hold of those tag ends until it closed up. ;)


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 9:01 pm • # 15 
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Well over the last couple days I tested the bejesus out of some leaders typical Florida Bass in some nasty places and some toothy critters attacked my poor lil foam bugs wooly buggers caught more fish though.
I'm very happy with the results no knot failures the Floro even handled the occasional toothy gar! Only thing I find disappointing is that the Floro is so limp my bugs do not lay out nice a pretty when the wind picks up and has a tendency to pile up at the end of the line. Stiff Mono may be best for these lighter leaders?

Watch those toes!
Image


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:37 pm • # 16 
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Not as good as a hand made tapered leader but I still just furl a simple leader with a loop at each end. Then I put a perfection loop on the end of the tippet and go loop to loop, leader to tippet. Off topic but I have fished the regular old Clinch Knot (note: NOT the Improved Clinch) for 40 years and see no reason to change. True it is not the strongest knot but I have caught some pretty big fish over the years, fly fishing and even back in my bait casting youth. In truth, I want a built in 'weak point' in the leader system and I want it right at the fly. It is invariable that we will loose flies to trees, rocks and even fish. If I do snag up I want to leave only the fly, not the fly and a string of fishing line too, hanging from a tree, or drifting along the bottom of the streambed or being dragged around by a fish. I want a barbless hook without leader to make the mess bigger and it is easier for a fish to shake a barbless hook loose without fishing line the perhaps might get wrapped up around the fish. Not fool proof, but I think it does help....and when tied correctly, the regular old clinch knot holds well enough to handle most fish.

My opinion here, not trying to preach, just my approach to fly fishing.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 5:56 pm • # 17 
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I'm with Dave on this. If I have multiple knots on the leader system, the fly-tippet connection should be the weakest link. I use the Davy Knot, but that's another story.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:16 pm • # 18 
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DCG wrote:
Not as good as a hand made tapered leader but I still just furl a simple leader with a loop at each end.
What do you make your furled leaders out of? (#mono?)


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:32 pm • # 19 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbcVaEe3RIs

I use Maxima Ultra Green. I use 8 lb ultra green for most of my fishing. 6lb works fine for UL fishing. I also use Pline Fluorocarbon for subsurface.


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