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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 11:49 am • # 41 
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steve wrote:
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Wow.
Pure propaganda with wrong statistics data usage by gun lobby.
IMHO
Here, just couple link to different view :
http://oneutah.org/2009/1...le-lies-and-distortions/
http://www.time.com/time/...le/0,9171,152446,00.html
Refuted by "pure propaganda" from an anti-gun blog?  With links that point to titles of articles or sources where books can be purchased, but no actual content.   Got to love this little snippet from the bottom of the linked page:

"Note to readers: OneUtah is a leading publisher of accurate, trustworthy, legal and scientific information about gun rights, guns, violence, gun violence and the psychology of CCP holders "

I can't wait to read about the psychology of the millions of CCP holders nationwide.  That should be loaded with generalizations.   Kind of like the psychology of hunters or anglers. 

------------------------------------------------------

If you would like a more detailed source.  "More Guns, Less Crime" 2nd Edition.  John Lott, Jr.  University of Chicago Press.  200 pages of statistical analysis followed by another 100 pages of sources and bibliography.   With an author who has repeatedly and very publicly backed his findings, and printed a 2nd edition complete with analysis of other studies claiming to refute his findings.  An author who started the study as someone who was not and had not been a gun owner.

Let me beat you to the punch so you don't have to Google and find it on an anti-gun blog.  The survey was funded by the John M. Olin Law and Economics Program at the University of Chicago, and yes, John Olin has/had ties to the gun industry, but the program he established at the University of Chicago is overseen by an independent board from the University.

My Lott is currently a Senior Researcher at Yale Law School.

A summary of findings can be found here.  http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html

Also, for an ongoing list of actual press reports dealing with guns used in self-defense, try this  http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/  no editorializing, no BS from either side.  Just a list of articles, both good and bad, of citizens involved in armed confrontations.  You'll quickly notice that they report instances where gun owners are killed with their own guns, and other stuff that the pro-gun lobby would prefer you not read.  But they also give you an idea of how frequently private citizens use guns successfully for their own protection.  No crap--just news articles.  The archives can be sorted by state.

BTW, even in anti-gun articles that call BS on the 2.5 million number,  they still admit to significant numbers.  One of the surveys cited by gun control advocates put the number at only 65,000 "reported" instances of guns used in self defense annually, others put it at closer to 200,000:

"The American Journal of Public Health commissioned a study from David McDowell in the 1990's that suggested self-defense incidents involving guns happen around 65,000 times a year. That is a full order of magnitude below the National Self-Defense Survey figures. It should be noted here that these numbers are more or less in keeping with results from the government's National Crime Victimization Survey.

Now a key caveat: most self-defense uses of guns don't see a single shot fired. This means that many, if not most, self-defense incidents might be excluded from the Hemenway and McDowell studies."

--------------------------------------------------


Regards,

Jerry


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 12:31 pm • # 42 
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I'm not going to argue with you Jerry, or any one.
What i'm just trying to say that there is a anti gun coalition and they got my vote.
It is my subjective opinion.


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 12:51 pm • # 43 
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steve wrote:
What i'm just trying to say that there is a anti gun coalition and they got my vote.
It is my subjective opinion.
All, well that's different.  We can just agree to disagree Image

My opinion was formed, just as yours was no doubt, over time and not due to any single study or raving pro or anti blogger.  I think you can be well-read and still fall on either side of the issue.

As a child I witnessed my partially disabled father brandish a weapon to fend off two much younger men in a road rage incident--something which left a lasting impression on me.  I also have a very good friend who grew up hunting and fishing but later found his younger brother's remains after a suicide in which a 44 magnum was used.  My friend will no longer allow a gun anywhere near his home and I respect his feelings.

Everyone has to make the choice and I'm thrilled to live in a place where we *have* a choice.

Regards,

Jerry


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 1:51 pm • # 44 
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I have to comment on the last few posts...Whether I agree or disagree is my choice...What I do thoroughly enjoy is civil disagreements between gentleman...no other forum I have been to in the last 10 years have I seen a better membership who even if they disagree remain civil and gentleman...Hats off to both of you...Both of you are class people whom, each in their own way, has gained my respect.....


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 3:55 pm • # 45 
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Boy! Did I ever tear the lid off a big can of worms.  My apologizes to the forum. 

This post was about self defense against nasty fury critters with big teeth.  I never intended to turn it into a pro gun/anti gun thread. 


Last edited by Anonymous on Mon May 24, 2010 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 6:16 pm • # 46 
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David, there is no reason for you to apoligize...It is a good thread, yes it did stray a little, but whenever you bring up guns and predators , Man, the ultimate predator, is eventually going to inserted into the conversation...this is human nature...and David, after all.. if someone does not like the thread, even if it did stray...they do not have to read it...I enjoy your posts and sometimes they really get a response, like this one did....never apoligize for your posts...I do not believe it is in any way necessary...


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 6:55 pm • # 47 
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Steve, the statistics are really irrelevant. The bottom line is our constitution grants us the right to own guns. Laws that prohibit the ownership of them is unconstitutional and should be fought against with vigor. Laws that require registration, training, waiting periods, etc. are not. Federal government should stay out of it, but that falls under a different amendment.


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 8:14 pm • # 48 
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swalker9513 wrote:
Steve, the statistics are really irrelevant. The bottom line is our constitution grants us the right to own guns. Laws that prohibit the ownership of them is unconstitutional and should be fought against with vigor. Laws that require registration, training, waiting periods, etc. are not. Federal government should stay out of it, but that falls under a different amendment.


This!   x100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:50 pm • # 49 
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Sasha wrote:
This!   x100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Whoa Sasha!  You scared me there for a second.  At first glance I thought maybe those were XOXOXOXOXOXO's....  you know--"hugs and kisses".

Must be late Image


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 6:13 am • # 50 
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not sure I know what that means.


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 7:15 am • # 51 
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Oh, and I don't own a gun. I have no desire to own one. Why I don't own a gun? I've never enjoyed shooting. Hunting seems too final. I don't get to change my mind once I've shot something. I have kids in the house, and it seems like a bad idea to have a gun in the same house. If I were to secure it in a safe, would I be able to get to it in an emergency? Doubtful. Would I be willing to actually pull the trigger? Even more doubtful. So, you see, Sasha, the aforementioned statistics are relevant when choosing. I'm glad I have the choice. Seems we tried that whole prohibition thing once before. Seems it created crime, not eliminate it.


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 3:06 pm • # 52 
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I want to tell my tale while we are talking guns..
You dont often hear this but I grew up around alot of guns and No one was hurt.
Three rowdy boys with an unlocked glass display type case full of the coolest guns and ammo a boy could see.
Plus all our friends and a fair share of HighSchool drinking parties and we all survived.
I tend to think, and am thankful we where tought to be responsible.
For those that are fearfull of guns & bad people I pray you find peace.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:50 pm • # 53 
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I was made fun off on fishing trips for carrying my m1911, then on one trip my fishing buddy was held at knife point by a young man. I looked over at my buddy and he had his hands up in the air like he was being held up. I set my rod down and pulled my .45 and came down the trail just up behind the man. The police check my concealed carry permit and arrested the young man, they had been getting reports about fisherman being robbed because they tend to be more focused on fishing than people walking up behind them.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:03 pm • # 54 
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MCFLY wrote:
I was made fun off on fishing trips for carrying my m1911, then on one trip my fishing buddy was held at knife point by a young man. I looked over at my buddy and he had his hands up in the air like he was being held up. I set my rod down and pulled my .45 and came down the trail just up behind the man. The police check my concealed carry permit and arrested the young man, they had been getting reports about fisherman being robbed because they tend to be more focused on fishing than people walking up behind them.


Good on ya. CITIZEN SOLDIERS.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:33 pm • # 55 
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I carry in the woods in case I run into Bigfoot or Yeti the Abominable Snowman. :hat

(I carry Jack-O-Links Beef Jerky for them, that way they won't get mad at me).


Last edited by Cliff Hilbert on Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:25 pm • # 56 
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Good thread, I just read through it start to now. I'm pro gun, and a bit belated but x2 on UrbanAngle's post.

I might get killed with my own gun, but it better be because I was greatly out numbered, ran out of bullets and got bludgeoned to death with it.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:13 pm • # 57 
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Oops, I forgot about Sasquatch. I carry beef jerky for him too. He gets pretty ferocious when he's angry.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:03 pm • # 58 
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I carry a Taurus Judge .410/45 Colt where ever I can. Two chambers loaded with 410 shot shells for snakes and three loaded with .45 colt shells for bad hogs/dogs etc..........I gives me great comfort............Don in SC


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:52 pm • # 59 
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Late to the party, very good thread, some interesting points of view.
I am pro gun. Been around, and have had guns my entire life.
I will not banter the issue of gun control. It is an emotional issue that cannot be settled logically.
I could kill someone with a pencil or a pair of scissors, does that mean we need to have the Feds step in a regulate who can buy such items? ::)
A handgun for protection in the wilds, in my opinion is absolutely necessary. I personally don't think I could whip a bear to death with a 2 or 3 wt rod. :lol
My question would be, what's the biggest caliber I could carry, shoot safely and accurately to take that bear down! :eek


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:33 pm • # 60 
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:D If I start to carry a gun while fishing it will be a 357 mag. Loaded properly it should stop a bear at 50 yds. Another option is a 10mm they will thump one also. Its a matter uf bullet placement. I hunt with hand guns big & small game. With the right ammo you will stop just about any animal.
Dennis


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