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 Post subject: 20 20 Club?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:04 am • # 1 
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The last couple of years I've enjoyed tying and fishing flies down to size 28. I heard about the 20 20 Club many years ago but haven't given it much thought until now. I think I'd like to try to accomplish it. I have a few questions.

1. Is there any agreement on the fly requirements? I did a search online and read a few posts that mentioned the use of dry flies only. Is that the consensus or do subsurface flies count?

2. Do you feel wide gap size 20 hooks (Daiichi 1160 Klinkhamer, Tiemco 2488, Daiichi 1140 Special Wide Gap, etc.) are acceptable or only "standard" size 20 hooks?

3. How many UL Fly Fishing members are in the 20 20 Club?


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 Post subject: Re: 20 20 Club?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:05 pm • # 2 
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Never heard of it till now, and I like to tie. I've got size 14 thread for tying smaller stuff- 16-20 zebra midges, but really haven't done much down to size #32.

All in all sounds like a good opportunity for a swap. If so i'm in.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: 20 20 Club?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:13 pm • # 3 
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pab1 wrote:
The last couple of years I've enjoyed tying and fishing flies down to size 28. I heard about the 20 20 Club many years ago but haven't given it much thought until now. I think I'd like to try to accomplish it. I have a few questions.

1. Is there any agreement on the fly requirements? I did a search online and read a few posts that mentioned the use of dry flies only. Is that the consensus or do subsurface flies count?

2. Do you feel wide gap size 20 hooks (Daiichi 1160 Klinkhamer, Tiemco 2488, Daiichi 1140 Special Wide Gap, etc.) are acceptable or only "standard" size 20 hooks?

3. How many UL Fly Fishing members are in the 20 20 Club?


Here are some of my disturbed thoughts on the subject.

!. Why would sub-surface flies below size 20 not count? If anything, they are more difficult when it comes to detecting takes.

2. If hook size is determined by gap size, and a #20 "wide-gap" hook actually has a #20 shank length with a #18 gap, doesn´t that actually make it a #18 1X short hook? Perhaps truth in advertising should apply here, as in other places.

3. Whereas at one time I did quite a bit of fishing with flies between #20 and #28, my vision is certainly not 20-20 anymore. But that 20-20 probably refers to #20 hooks or smaller and fish over 20 inches. Nowadays a fish over 20 centimeters is more like my reality.

That said, the concept of a 20-20 club is interesting, but hopefully nobody will ever hit me with one. Please don't take my comments too seriously.


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 Post subject: Re: 20 20 Club?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:18 pm • # 4 
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Oddly enough, there is a 20/20 Club in the city I live closest to.
http://www.twenty20club.ca/

While I cannot say that there is any 'angling' connotation to the club, I understand that you can definitely catch something there.
I've also heard it is the location of the absolute BEST cougar hunting in New Brunswick.
brent


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 Post subject: Re: 20 20 Club?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:50 pm • # 5 
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No clubs or anything like that, and I have always called it the 222 challenge. 2wt fly rod, #20 fly of choice, and land a 22" fish. And I have marked it of the list.


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 Post subject: Re: 20 20 Club?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:31 pm • # 6 
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Arnold Gingrich pushed this idea in his book The Well Tempered Angler (1965).

John Gierach also credits Gingrich with this idea on his chapter on Midge Fishing in his book Sex Death and Fly Fishing (1990).

Gierach also said modern day version should be catching 20 fish in a day and all over 20 inches.

I would believe the idea of only a dry fly over a subsurface fly is that since trout probably feed subsurface at least 90% of the time it would be more of an accomplishment to use the dry fly.

On a personal level I don't get it and I think just another way for superior anglers of that time period to say they were even more superior.

Barry


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 Post subject: Re: 20 20 Club?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:30 pm • # 7 
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GRASSNGLASS wrote:
On a personal level I don't get it and I think just another way for superior anglers of that time period to say they were even more superior.
Barry

:lol :applause

Over the years, I've thought about this 'large fish' thing. I do love to catch large fish on small flies and with light rods, but I've not seen anything that suggests larger fish are 'harder' to catch. Notwithstanding the fact that people feel its easier to lose big fish while playing them, I'd say that a relatively skilled angler can succeed in bringing large fish to hand as often as he will bring smaller fish in, once hooked). Big fish respond to the same predatory triggers as a smaller fish, and likely have to feed more often. But there are, in most normal populations, much fewer large specimens than smaller specimens. So you don't catch them as often. Plus, as it pertains to lighter rods or tiny flies, it can be more efficient for larger fish to focus on larger prey items. I'm not sure there's much to support the angling fiction theory that Ol' Mossback, with his pea-sized brain, got that big because he's the cleverest fish in the pond, remembering over winter how that tempting wooly bugger stung him last June.
So maybe that's where the real challenge lies: finding one of the few larger fish willing to feed on smaller food items?
Just my opinion.
brent


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 Post subject: Re: 20 20 Club?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:53 pm • # 8 
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Thanks for the input everyone!

PampasPete wrote:
Here are some of my disturbed thoughts on the subject.

!. Why would sub-surface flies below size 20 not count? If anything, they are more difficult when it comes to detecting takes.

2. If hook size is determined by gap size, and a #20 "wide-gap" hook actually has a #20 shank length with a #18 gap, doesn´t that actually make it a #18 1X short hook? Perhaps truth in advertising should apply here, as in other places.


Good analysis and explanation of the actual hook size. I never really gave the actual size of wide gap hooks much thought until I started thinking about the 20 20 Club.

GRASSNGLASS wrote:
Arnold Gingrich pushed this idea in his book The Well Tempered Angler (1965).

John Gierach also credits Gingrich with this idea on his chapter on Midge Fishing in his book Sex Death and Fly Fishing (1990).

Gierach also said modern day version should be catching 20 fish in a day and all over 20 inches.

I would believe the idea of only a dry fly over a subsurface fly is that since trout probably feed subsurface at least 90% of the time it would be more of an accomplishment to use the dry fly.

On a personal level I don't get it and I think just another way for superior anglers of that time period to say they were even more superior.

Barry


Great info Barry! I haven't read Gingrich's book. If I can find a copy I'll pick it up. I read Sex Death and Fly Fishing years ago and didn't remember it being mentioned in there. I'll have to read that chapter again. You're probably right about the motivation for many to accomplish this. For me it would just be for the challenge and fun involved in seeing if I could do it. Anyone who has seen me cast can confirm that I'm not a superior angler by any means! :lol

wheezeburnt wrote:
GRASSNGLASS wrote:
On a personal level I don't get it and I think just another way for superior anglers of that time period to say they were even more superior.
Barry

:lol :applause

Over the years, I've thought about this 'large fish' thing. I do love to catch large fish on small flies and with light rods, but I've not seen anything that suggests larger fish are 'harder' to catch. Notwithstanding the fact that people feel its easier to lose big fish while playing them, I'd say that a relatively skilled angler can succeed in bringing large fish to hand as often as he will bring smaller fish in, once hooked). Big fish respond to the same predatory triggers as a smaller fish, and likely have to feed more often. But there are, in most normal populations, much fewer large specimens than smaller specimens. So you don't catch them as often. Plus, as it pertains to lighter rods or tiny flies, it can be more efficient for larger fish to focus on larger prey items. I'm not sure there's much to support the angling fiction theory that Ol' Mossback, with his pea-sized brain, got that big because he's the cleverest fish in the pond, remembering over winter how that tempting wooly bugger stung him last June.
So maybe that's where the real challenge lies: finding one of the few larger fish willing to feed on smaller food items?
Just my opinion.
brent


Good points Brent. I agree that large fish are not necessarily harder to catch. I've caught some very nice trout on articulated streamers that didn't require a delicate cast or perfect presentation. The biggest challenge was throwing and stripping a big waterlogged streamer all day using a 10' 7wt rod.

Along the lines of what you said, I think the biggest challenge would be getting larger fish to spend the energy required to rise to a small fly (or placing a midge directly in front of them). A few years ago I was trying to catch a brown in a small stream. He was in a narrow channel where the water flowed around what was left of a beaver dam on one side and the willow covered bank on the other side. He had the prime spot and a smaller brown was staged to the left and slightly behind him. There were a lot of damselflys flying low over the water and the bigger fish kept snagging the ones that flew over him.

I was using a size 24 X-Caddis and made what I thought were several good presentations to him but he wouldn't budge. As soon as another damselfly flew over he would grab it. I finally decided to try for the smaller fish and he took the fly on the first cast. It was a nice 16" brown. I'm not sure if the bigger fish would have took my fly if he wasn't focused on damselflys. I know he never even paid attention to it that day. I've had similar experiences with bigger trout and small flies on other trips. I think the smaller fish was taking anything the bigger one passed up on. Another part of the challenge is landing larger fish with the light tippets usually used with small flies.


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 Post subject: Re: 20 20 Club?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:31 am • # 9 
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I'd think you also would need to stipulate Wild Fish Only for it to rise to the challenge it purports to be.


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 Post subject: Re: 20 20 Club?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:28 pm • # 10 
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pab1,

I wasn't indicating you were looking for a claim of superiority. I apologize if you took it that way.

I was pointing to some writers of that time period who claimed it was only sporting to approach the sport in their way. Indicating more sporting to add difficulty to catching the fish. Many pushed how wonderful it was to fish short rods for all situations. Loved watching them fish with their arm fully extended over their head to get same results as a long rod. Try standing with rod held fully extended over your head for a period of time and see how fun it is.

I guess it's always been that way, from mid 1800's Frederick Halford pushed only sporting way was dry flies fished in a certain way. Major quarrel erupted between him and G.E.M. Skues when Skues stared pushing nymph fishing.

Barry


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 Post subject: Re: 20 20 Club?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:02 pm • # 11 
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GRASSNGLASS wrote:
pab1,

I wasn't indicating you were looking for a claim of superiority. I apologize if you took it that way.



I didn't think you were referring to me but I agree that it's probably the motivation for some. I read the Midge Fishing chapter or Sex Death and Fly Fishing again and Gierach mentions that too. Thanks again for bringing up that chapter. I'd completely forgot about it.


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 Post subject: Re: 20 20 Club?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:20 pm • # 12 
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pab1,

Arnold Gingrich wrote couple fishing books and many on the market. Although, I didn't agree with all he said, I certainly enjoyed reading them. Good books to pick up if you get a chance. Of course that's my opinion and everyone enjoys different things in their reading.

Barry


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 Post subject: Re: 20 20 Club?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:00 pm • # 13 
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I just ordered a copy of The Well Tempered Angler and The Joys of Trout.


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 Post subject: Re: 20 20 Club?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:14 pm • # 14 
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Hope you enjoy them.

Barry


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 Post subject: Re: 20 20 Club?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:13 pm • # 15 
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I thought that Lee Wuffer proposed that concept for his show off articles in the 1950's and '60's

A size 20 fly for a larger fish either 20lbs or 20" long.

Many played with the bragging rights for that idea and killed many fish by playing them too long and the lactic acid build up destroyed the fish.

Of course in the pre "I invented Catch and Release" days the Wuffer killed every fish he hooked.

Regards,
FK


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 Post subject: Re: 20 20 Club?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:14 pm • # 16 
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[quote="fkrow"]
Of course in the pre "I invented Catch and Release" days the Wuffer killed every fish he hooked.
/quote]

Indeed. I've seen a convincing argument that, in North America at least, it was bass (hardware) fishermen who started the whole hook and release movement.
brent


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 Post subject: Re: 20 20 Club?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:28 pm • # 17 
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wheezeburnt wrote:
Oddly enough, there is a 20/20 Club in the city I live closest to.
http://www.twenty20club.ca/

While I cannot say that there is any 'angling' connotation to the club, I understand that you can definitely catch something there.
I've also heard it is the location of the absolute BEST cougar hunting in New Brunswick.
brent


Yep, you just might catch something you don't want.


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 Post subject: Re: 20 20 Club?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:19 am • # 18 
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GRASSNGLASS wrote:
Arnold Gingrich pushed this idea in his book The Well Tempered Angler (1965).
John Gierach also credits Gingrich with this idea on his chapter on Midge Fishing in his book Sex Death and Fly Fishing (1990).
Gierach also said modern day version should be catching 20 fish in a day and all over 20 inches.
I would believe the idea of only a dry fly over a subsurface fly is that since trout probably feed subsurface at least 90% of the time it would be more of an accomplishment to use the dry fly.
On a personal level I don't get it and I think just another way for superior anglers of that time period to say they were even more superior.
Barry


Seems Orvis had a recognition pin one could earn for a 20/20 catch, but would have to go read old Orvis Newsletters to be sure.


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