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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:29 am • # 1 
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Hi All! This forum has had a lot of grrreat tips from various hero, senior, admin,... members. You know who you are and I want to thank you VERY much for helping me become a wanna-be-fly-fishing-junkie :D You've taught me alot about observing n thinking; entomology, tactics, strategies...; the importance and gratitude of catch and release... sooo much more. I'm looking forward to always learning so thanks again!

Question (more for advanced casters):
If u were to choose between glass or graphite rod - both are medium action, same rod length, line wt, and overall rig weight, which material would you choose to minimize wear and tear on ur arm's joints tendons/ligaments? Some arm fatigue is normal after 1-2hrs.. I need to manage mild unavoidable tendonitis, and wrist pain from years of repetitive work. Last Spring I picked up first FF rig (Fenwick HMG 9' 5wt, 3.7oz med-fast graphite rod and a 2.9oz Battenkill II - will work for nymphing browns and brookies for now but I can't FEEL casts much). I may get by using a 4wt but there's often too much wind. I will try many light weight rods. Which one do you recommend? Any tips besides keeping rig super light or chopping some line off?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:38 pm • # 2 
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I also have problems with tendonitis and rotator cuff problems. My preference for several years has been fiberglass for its' slower, more relaxed pace when casting. However, with the parameters you laid out, with action, length, and weight all being equal, I don't see that it makes any difference which material you are using. Now, if one rod was much faster action, I would say to go with the slower action. Aside from the fact that I'm getting old and stove up, I have also been a physical therapist for the past 43 years, so I do speak from a certain knowledge base.

Larry


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:22 pm • # 3 
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I used to spend 8hrs a day on the river casting a 5weight. Now the 2 weight TFO is my friend.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:53 pm • # 4 
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I'll throw a wrench in and add swing weight as a factor, and to me more important than overall weight. Graphite is usually more likely to have a lower swing weight but honestly specific rods can have their own unique feel. Some rods are just pleasant and some aren't even though they're light or feel light. The unfortunate conclusion I've drawn is that I'm gonna just have to try a bunch. Darn it.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:26 am • # 5 
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That's a great question.

Fiberglass is heavy, and I'm speaking physical weight. So right off I'd say graphite will be better for your joints on that alone. But fiberglass is almost unbreakable unless you do something out of the ordinary.

Yes, you want a softer action rod, maybe no more than a nice smooth medium action mid/flex rod. Med/fast isn't bad, and I have a right shoulder that's not quite right, s med/fast is as fast as I go most of the time, but you may want to try a different line on your Fenwick, or maybe go up a weight on the line to slow down the rod.

You mentioned too much wind. A fast action rod will do better in the wind, but it will tear you up in time as well. A medium action in a 5wt might do ok, depending on how much wind you're talking about.

As mentioned in a previous post, swing weight is something to consider.

I don't like to recommend rods, because what I like, you may not. I did at first think of the Orvis Superfine Carbon, but wind will not be it's friend. The Redington Classic Trout is a great medium action rod, along with my new found favorite the Elkhorn Nomad for a mid priced rod range. The Scott G2 is an awesome rod, and they are on clearance now, but they are challenged by the wind.

What weight rod and length are you looking for? That info will help greatly for us to help you.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:13 am • # 6 
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As preast mentioned, swing weight is probably significantly more important than the overall weight of the rod. A tip heavy rod increases the swing weight a lot. I remember years ago buying a 10' Sage RPL 5 weight. I had other 5 and 6 weight rods, but when I started casting the Sage I developed a lot of soreness in the forearm from having to control the extra length of the rod. If I didn't use the rod for a while and then went back to it I would get sore all over again. You might experience the same issue if you use too light a reel for the rod. For the last 3-4 months I have been battling tendonitis in my right wrist. I had to stop fishing for a few weeks when it got really bad. Propelling the rod forward on the casting stroke was no problem; it was when I tried to stop the rod on the forward cast that I had problems. Fortunately I rarely use a rod heavier than 4 weight 90% of the time and usually stay at 3 weight or lighter. And yes, as a material, carbon graphite is lighter than fiberglass, but you can find some very light glass rods also. Most people that pick up my Steffen are surprised at how light it is. The newer glass rods, especially those built in S or T glass are lighter than most rods built of E glass. I probably own 30 or more rods; some are wonderful and I could cast them all day and others would wear me out in an hour or so. You may just have to try out a lot of different rods to see what suits you best. If you live in an area with a flyfishing club, that would be a good way to try out a lot of different rods. If you live in an area like mine, it may just take time and trial and error. (In my case, lots of trials and lots of errors).

Larry


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:05 pm • # 7 
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I prefer glass and seldom fish graphite although I own a few graphite rods. If I were choosing a rod strictly for less body stress, I would choose the graphite assuming it's lighter than the equivalent glass rod. I also think a faster rod stresses the body less.

On the other hand, if it were me choosing, I'd likely go down in size to achieve the graphite weight and get a glass rod; I just enjoy fishing a glass rod over a graphite rod.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:00 pm • # 8 
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I also struggle with joint problems and thought carbon would be the right choice. But now that I own a few glass CGRs I’m not convinced. These are inexpensive rods and not light but I do well with them. As a novice, I find the feedback of a glass rod allows me to time my strokes better, resulting in less false casting. I simply get more line out in fewer strokes with glass.

Also consider Lefty Kreh’s approach to casting which makes more use of the body to get the work done and doesn’t isolate the arm.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:11 am • # 9 
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I am somewhat surprised to see a couple of people stating they feel a graphite rod is easier on the joints and tendons. Since I switched to glass over 9 years ago, I noticed much less stress on my shoulder, elbow, and wrist. That is a very common finding reported over on the Fiberglass Flyrodders forum. The vast majority of the members who switched from the graphite rods noticed significantly less stress on their bodies. However, once you get above 7 weight and go to 8 1/2 or 9 ft. lengths, then graphite is given the edge, primarily due to the increased swing weight with glass.

Larry


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:46 am • # 10 
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6 weight and below: glass. 7 weight and above graphite; 6 weight is marginal-p-


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:24 pm • # 11 
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I also have joint problems. I am in process of replacing joints. First was my right knee, next is the left one. (Wading was out for me last year.) Around June I'll have the left shoulder replaced.
Right now I could still cast with my right shoulder, but I can't do anything with my left arm. I don't think I'll be back to flyfishing till 2019 after the right shoulder heals.
I am a big fan of glass. I have two fenwick glass rods. Both handle 3wt line. One will handle 4 wt nicely for windy days. All of my rods are shorter. I am getting ready to sell my ovris 1wt that is 7'6".
I am keeping my superfine 3wt and 2wt rods as well as the fenwicks and two rods I built(all graphite.) They are all short and 3wt or less. I am also keeping my Bass Pro bottom entry rod(6-7wt) to loan to friends who want to try flyfishing.
I also mostly fish for bluegill/bream. Not a lot of technique is needed. I can cast sitting on lawn chair, canoe, jon boat, or dock with my feet dangling in the water. I've been fishing for bream like this for 40 years. Trout are a bit pickier. And the past two years I have switched to a spin rod and dough bait.(OMG, I can't believe I said that on this forum.)
I like Lefty's book. It is worth the money.
I was looking forward to retiring, but I didn't know that my body was going to "recall" so many parts. I think adjusting my mindset to match my body aches and pains goes further than buying new gear every time a new challenge is sent my way. I stand in the river less, fish fewer hours at a time, and I take more pictures of the scenery.
Fishing is not about catching the fish.

Mary


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:54 pm • # 12 
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Canoeman1947 wrote:
I am somewhat surprised to see a couple of people stating they feel a graphite rod is easier on the joints and tendons. Since I switched to glass over 9 years ago, I noticed much less stress on my shoulder, elbow, and wrist. That is a very common finding reported over on the Fiberglass Flyrodders forum. The vast majority of the members who switched from the graphite rods noticed significantly less stress on their bodies. However, once you get above 7 weight and go to 8 1/2 or 9 ft. lengths, then graphite is given the edge, primarily due to the increased swing weight with glass.

Larry


I have found, and I'm speaking of my own experience, that graphite rods that have a slower action are comparable to fiberglass. I stay away from fast graphite rods because of a shoulder problem. Slower action ( medium and slower ) rods, no matter the material are easier on the body.
As mentioned in a previous post, many graphite and fiberglass rods are very similar in physical weight. I have a bamboo rod that I just love, and it is heavy compared to graphite. But because of the soft action, casting is effortless and smooth. It's not like casting a Sage One where timing of the casting has to be right on. As we all know, fast rods are not forgiving on bad casts, but softer rods are. And I personally believe because of that, to a point, softer rods are better on the joints because you can get away with murder casting a soft to medium action rod. Maybe not murder, but close to it.

Again, this is all based on what my body has experienced.

And yes, Larry is correct 100% on rods that are 7 and above for line weight, and 8.5 to 9 ft. graphite would be the way to go. But ultralight rods, I don't know if going to a fast rod would really matter, or fishing with graphite or fiberglass, which would be the better one to fish with. We are all different when it comes to our aches and pains, what may work for one, may not be so good for another. But I can't imagine a 2wt rod for example doing much damage to anything. A 5wt and up, yeah, I can see that.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:54 am • # 13 
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Totally agree on the point, that it's the action of a rod that determines how hard casting it will be on the body. What also plays a role here is that the rod acts as a lever - and with a parabolic action you have a shorter lever than with a tip action, although rod lengths are the same. In terms of material I would without a doubt go with carbon - with the same action you can always have quite a bit less swing weight(that works together with the lever and the weight outside the rod tip) with the same action, length etc than with a glass or grass rod. Swing weight is much more important here than overall weight. I would always look for a well blanced setup with a reel not too light...

Iasgair wrote:
As we all know, fast rods are not forgiving on bad casts, but softer rods are.


I don't agree on that one tho. It's an old misconception that softer rods are easier to cast. Slower, medium or medium fast and priced rods are often marketed as rods for the beginner or a little advanced angler...
Acutally a softer rod is more difficult to cast than stiffer rod. Forming effective and small loops is more difficult with a softer rod, because its way easier to overload the rod and therefore have your rodtip dip into a concave rod tip path instead of ideally a straight or slightly convex rod tip path and resulting in tailing loops.
I can give a total beginner a fast rod and have him cast nice loops in a few minutes, without him having a good stroke (right amount of power at the right time according to the casting arc) at all. Thats why I always start teaching with a medium fast rod and according to the learning curve move to slower and slower rods during the day.
Timing with faster rods becomes difficult when you are casting very far with a very stiff rod for example an 8 or 10wt rod with a 5wt Expert Distance line - a setup commonly used for trout distance competitions. But a not so good caster wouldn`t come near those distances by using a less stiff rod. The rod loading btw only provides around 25 to 33% of the power going into the stroke. It's mainly the lever. (A Swiss guy with a PHD in physics actually made a paper about that...)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:05 pm • # 14 
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"I can give a total beginner a fast rod and have him cast nice loops in a few minutes, without him having a good stroke (right amount of power at the right time according to the casting arc) at all. Thats why I always start teaching with a medium fast rod and according to the learning curve move to slower and slower rods during the day."

I can agree with that up to a point. I have long held that if teaching a beginner, I would rather start them on a medium-fast rod. I believe it is easier to learn the timing of the cast with that type rod. Admittedly I cannot cast as tight a loop with a glass rod as I can with a carbon rod; that is just pretty much the nature of the beast. However, the tight loop is mainly for achieving distance or punching through the wind. Since I am rarely casting beyond 30-40' I don't see that as much of a problem. There are actually quite a few of the modern glass rods with a medium-fast action that are barely, if any, heavier than a carbon rod. I have some slower action rods that I enjoy fishing, but it is more difficult to adjust to the timing, which is why I would not recommend a rod like that for a novice. I have discussed glass rods with quite a number of flyfishers. The most common remark I hear is: "Isn't glass heavy and kind of noodly?". I can hand them my 8' 3 weight Steffen which has a medium-fast action, and the first comment is "wow, that is light". The next comment after casting the rod is concerning its smoothness. The next question is usually concerning where they can find one and how much does it cost.

The original poster is looking for a rod that is easier on his painful joints and tendons. In response to that I will reiterate what I said in my initial reply. If all factors of length, action, and weight are equal, it makes no difference which material. Whether carbon graphite or glass or boron or whatever, stay away from very fast action rods and use a rod with a more relaxed action, not necessarily a really slow one. Since we on this forum are interested in and use ultralight rods, that does negate many of the problems, but not all. I have friends who really love fast action rods, but they are not having any musculoskeletal problems. Besides the fact that I'm aging and my body is beginning to betray me, I have been a physical therapist for 43 years and have spent a lot of time treating these types of problems. The most common complaint I would hear was that slower and less forceful movements weren't bad, but fast and forceful movements were excruciating.

Larry


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:00 am • # 15 
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Canoeman1947 wrote:

I can agree with that up to a point. I have long held that if teaching a beginner, I would rather start them on a medium-fast rod.
LauraPalmer wrote:
...Thats why I always start teaching with a medium fast rod and according to the learning curve move to slower and slower rods during the day.


I guess we aren't too far apart on this one anyway :-)


Canoeman1947 wrote:
Admittedly I cannot cast as tight a loop with a glass rod as I can with a carbon rod; that is just pretty much the nature of the beast. However, the tight loop is mainly for achieving distance or punching through the wind. Since I am rarely casting beyond 30-40' I don't see that as much of a problem. There are actually quite a few of the modern glass rods with a medium-fast action that are barely, if any, heavier than a carbon rod.


That's just practice... A tight loop is also beneficial for accuracy and being able to cast in difficult situations like on a small trout stream with lots of overhanging trees etc, for line control (especially when a double haul is used) and for making the loop more effective and therefore needing less power, which should reduce the impact on the body too...

Yeah, the new glass rods are rather light and you don't feel that much difference with short rods in lighter classes. But there are limits of what the material is capable of - there is a reason, you basically see no 9' or longer single handed glass rods - even an 8'6" #5 Epic rod feels like a tank compared to a light graphite rod the same length and lineweight (although they are great to cast - love at first sight...).
I don't want to be an advocate of graphite over glass - everybody should use what floats his boat and also because glass has losts of benefits: they are much tougher i.e. don't break as easily as graphite, are fun to play fish and I personally think a lot of them look way nicer than a graphite rod ever could, but if you want or need the tool with the lightest swing weight, graphite is better than glass, simply due to the traits of the material.
The already mentioned Orvis Superfine Carbon would be a good tool for the original poster in my opinion: super light in terms of swing weight and a moderate action...


Cheers

Gerhard


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:41 pm • # 16 
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I don't think we are in much disagreement on the subject. While I can't cast quite as tight a loop with glass as with graphite, I can usually get into tight spots OK. In going under low hanging branches I usually sidearm it and skip the fly under. There are very few glass rods over 8' length I would want to spend much time casting because of the swing weight. Although I love glass rods, I'm also rather fond of my 8' 4 weight Winston WT and my Loomis 8' 3 weight Streamdance Metolius. It was the Winston that started my move toward a more medium action. I also have a 2 weight Redington CT that is nice to cast. And on a whim, I p[cked up a Wright & McGill S-Curve graphite rod in 2 weight a few years ago which is a surprisingly decent rod for the money. One of the finest casting rods from years ago was an old Orvis rod that would basically be pretty much identical to the new Superfine series. Most of the guys on the glass forum tend to gush over the Orvis Superfine carbon series.

Larry


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