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 Post subject: casting help, please
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:17 am • # 1 
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I am new to this sport and I am getting pretty frustrated with my inability to cast. I keep getting my tippet fouled during the cast and end up with horrific knots. I think I know the problem, or a big part of it anyhow. I use a St. Croix 3 wt. 6'6" rod. When I cast, I cannot feel the tip loading. I have tried my wife's Elkhorn 5 wt. 8' rod, and the feel of the tip loading is pretty obvious. Any suggestions for helping feel the tip load? Or, is the short length of my rod making it impossible to get a good cast?


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 Post subject: Re: casting help, please
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:14 am • # 2 
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I'd be inclined to encourage you to spend a few hours with your wife's 8' 5wt.rod, and get a really good feel for the casting techniques first, and THEN swap to the little 6'.
I'm no expert by any means, but I've had a lot more luck teaching folks to cast using a longer rod (8.5 feet) in a heavier line wt than with shorter rods. I just feel, as you noted, the loading is more obvious. Plus, the whole casting process seems slower and more manageable.
I'm not saying you cannot learn with the short, light rod; I'm just saying that, in my limited experience, it is more of a challenge.
In addition, I wonder if you're trying to throw too long a line with the wee rod, based on your experience with the longer rod.


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 Post subject: Re: casting help, please
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:21 pm • # 3 
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"I keep getting my tippet fouled during the cast and end up with horrific knots. I think I know the problem, or a big part of it anyhow."

Heck, I've been fly fishing for 50 years and I still do that. :lol :lol :lol

Les is the expert on this and he'll eventually come on the board and give you the answer you need.


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 Post subject: Re: casting help, please
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:26 pm • # 4 
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Be aware that every rod requires different timing. The timing changes as a function of rod stiffness, length, and line weight and taper. It is convenient to learn the mechanics on different rods and lengths (some folks find it easier on longer others shorter rods). But know that every rod is different.

I find it most intuitive on a medium action and medium length (8') rod in the 4-6 wt regime. When I was learning to cast (and I still am to a large extent) I preferred over lining by a weight on most rods.

As a general tip, check your back cast as much as your forward. Most folks don't stop long enough to let the line completely unfold. This can lead to knots and $2 casts (whipping the fly off). So as you practice, try back casting. Pick a target and turn your head/shoulder to try to hit it behind you. I find it a useful skill on the river too.


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 Post subject: Re: casting help, please
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:10 pm • # 5 
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fish stick wrote:
I am new to this sport and I am getting pretty frustrated with my inability to cast. I keep getting my tippet fouled during the cast and end up with horrific knots. I think I know the problem, or a big part of it anyhow. I use a St. Croix 3 wt. 6'6" rod. When I cast, I cannot feel the tip loading. I have tried my wife's Elkhorn 5 wt. 8' rod, and the feel of the tip loading is pretty obvious. Any suggestions for helping feel the tip load? Or, is the short length of my rod making it impossible to get a good cast?


As mentioned by others the short rod might be the problem until you are more experienced. The problem appears to be that you maybe exerting too much energy into your forward cast in trying to get distance and so getting a tailing loop which is commonly called a wind knot. As pointed out above watch your back cast and when it straightens out make your forward cast, don't overpower it and just let the line shoot out on the stop.


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 Post subject: Re: casting help, please
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:19 pm • # 6 
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Do you have someone with experience where you , a Cabelas or ff club? If so I would get help. That person can spot your cast and help you find where your rod loads. Everything you describe sounds like over rotation; that is, you're moving the rod too fast and not creating load. Wind knots point this way...

Les


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 Post subject: Re: casting help, please
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:52 pm • # 7 
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It's your rod, piece of junk, I will be happy to take it off your hands.


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 Post subject: Re: casting help, please
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:25 pm • # 8 
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Grey Ghost wrote:
It's your rod, piece of junk, I will be happy to take it off your hands.


:lol :lol


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 Post subject: Re: casting help, please
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:29 pm • # 9 
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fish stick,
Lots of good advice so far. Not feeling the tip load has no relation to the length of the rod. You might try over lining with 4wgt line, you could even use your Wife's 5wgt line but keep your cast short. If your still having problems, and have the courage, take a quick video of yourself casting and post it.

Don't give up, it will all come together soon enough. Keep us posted on your progress!
Jb


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 Post subject: Re: casting help, please
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:39 am • # 10 
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FishStick, the most important thing is DON"T QUIT, you're going to absolutely LOVE Ultralight Fly Fishing and might never go back to anything heavier than a 3wt. I was initiated into the sport with a fast action 9' 5wt Scott A2 and it took me MONTHS to get the casting right, eventually I did and at the same time cast a slower action friend's 9' 5wt (which cost about a quarter of the Scott - luckily I got it at half price!).

So I ended up going on a quest that I am very much still on looking for that perfect smooth action rod that suits my style best. My first U/L experience was a cheap 'local' brand rod labeled as a 2/3 which was probably a 4/5 in 7'6" length (I'll get to my point soon ;) on which I struggled to cast properly. I was overpowering it, couldn't feel the rod load and wanted to chuck the piece of !@#p away.

Luckily my extremely wise and patient fiance convinced me to keep at it till I got it down. Only to discover the action was too fast still! Next was an 8'4" 3wt and then my true love Redington Ct 7'6" 2wt. I have notice the lighter the rod gets/the shorter the length, I seem to cast better with slower and slower action rods. I enjoy it more, it "feels right" and is a blast to play a fish on. (PS. my 2wt either has a 2wt DT line or 3wt WF line on it, I want to feel the rod load while casting and this worked best)


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 Post subject: Re: casting help, please
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:31 pm • # 11 
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All great advice. Just relax and don't push it, it'll come to you then one day you'll pick up that 5wt and think it's a push pole.


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 Post subject: Re: casting help, please
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:15 pm • # 12 
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Without seeing a side-view video of your cast, the only thing I can think of is that you are applying too much power at the beginning of your casting stroke. This causes the rod tip to dip and then rise. If you can imagine the rod tip tracing a line in the air, a proper cast will create almost a straight line with a very flat arc. If you apply too much power a the beginning of the stroke, that traced line will look like 2 small hills with a valley in between. Because the line always follows the rod tip during a cast, that's what the line will do and have a dip in it propagating down the line to the end as it's traveling forward. Imagine a thin sideways U with a squiggle on the upper leg. This is what a cast looks like with a tailing loop. As that U becomes straightened out at the end of the cast, the squiggle travels nearer to the tip of the line. At the same time the U becomes narrower and narrower. Eventually, the squiggle will overlap the lower leg of the disappearing U and there appears your tangle.

The power application should come in the 2nd half to last part of your stroke. This will happen whether you can feel the rod load or not. It's just the nature of ultralight flyrod/line weights to have that much of a subtle feeling. I can feel my 8-wt load a heckuva lot more than my 6-wt; it's just a matter of feeling more mass moving.

You could upline to a 4-wt line to get the timing down for your rod, but if you try going for further distances, your rod will be overloaded by the extra weight and you will experience the same problems of tailing loops all over again. Since you are a beginner, one of the best things you can do is get one of those practice rods made for casting indoors. I've got a bunch of different ones, and I feel that the one made by Echo is the best teacher in terms of learning timing and how to wait for maximum load, and really showing you your casting mistakes because its lightweight fuzzy yarn leader slows down the cast to show you what's going on in real-time. It's certainly not the most realistic in terms of full size flyrod feel, and you'll have to adjust your timing when using your fullsize gear, but it will certainly help you learn and practice the concepts so that you'll become a much better flycaster.

- Albert


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 Post subject: Re: casting help, please
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:27 pm • # 13 
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Joined: 04/17/13
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Location: Alexandria, VA (DC)
Remember to think slow and smooth when casting. The use of force rarely results in anything good with fly casting, which is why so many instructors will tell you that women actually tend to pick it up more quickly than men. ;)

HTH


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 Post subject: Re: casting help, please
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:15 pm • # 14 
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Location: Corona, Ca.
Fish stick,
Hello, short graphite rods are not easy to cast. The suggestion of trying a 4 wt. line on your rod is a really good idea. It will load the rod more and allow you to feel the blank loading and maybe give you a better feel of the cast. I would suggest taking a casting lesson or two and then maybe get a medium fast 8'6" 4 or 5 wt. to learn with. Go on you tube and watch the Lefty Kreh casting videos. He is a great caster and breaks down the casting process very well. Also go to Echo fly fishing and look at the Tim Rajeff casting videos again a great caster and he explains how to cast very well. Also in my opinion the right line matched to a certain rod will make or break how it casts. Example, a fast action rod like a Sage VXP, St. Croix Legend Elite or TFO BVK will not cast that well with say a Cortland 444 or Sylk line. These lines work better on a glass, bamboo or medium action graphite rod. A line like a Rio Gold or a Grand or a SA GPX is designed to load a fast action and will work much better on a fast rod. Like the others have said do not give up. I have been fly fishing for over 30 years and still mess up casts. Fly fishing is the best way to try and catch a fish and is a wonderful mix of science, sport and art. Just have fun and enjoy the process of becoming a fly fisher because one can never master this sport fully as there is always something new to learn.

Lanny


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 Post subject: Re: casting help, please
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:44 pm • # 15 
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Joined: 09/24/13
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Thanks to everyone who has replied. I think you are right; I am using too much force when I bring the rod forward. I think my problems are also compounded by the fact that I have been trying to use a nymph with split shot. Since I am using a short 3wt, maybe i should stay away from the added weight and only throw dry files? Anyhow, the first weekend in December there is a fishing expo here and folks from IFF are going to be demonstrating casting and giving help to individuals. I plan to be first in line!


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 Post subject: Re: casting help, please
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:02 pm • # 16 
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fish stick wrote:
Thanks to everyone who has replied. Anyhow, the first weekend in December there is a fishing expo here and folks from IFF are going to be demonstrating casting and giving help to individuals. I plan to be first in line!

Good plan. Let us know how that goes.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: casting help, please
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:24 am • # 17 
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Location: South Africa
Fishstick you can chuck any flies with them that you want ;) Some rods handle certain styles of fishing better, but don't worry about that in the start. Pick the way you want to fish (look at what fish and how you need to target them and use this as an example) so that even while you are learning you're in with a chance. ;) Once you have hooked and landed that first fish you will have enough endurance for a lifetime. :) The expo and any casting instruction is a brilliant idea, also see what books you can find on the subject matter. It all helps because we will always be learning new things with this sport. Best of luck!


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 Post subject: Re: casting help, please
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:17 pm • # 18 
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Thanks to everyone who tried to help me. I got about a half-hour lesson from a certified IFFF casting instructor at the local Fly Fishing Expo this weekend. The problem (as most of you already knew) was trying to use too much power in the forward cast. Anyhow, Dave, my instructor, gave me several tips and a practice regimen that should help. I also realize that (as a beginner) I have put myself behind the eight ball with such a short, lightweight rod. But, I am determined to get it right so I will will just have to work harder and maybe bump my line up to a four or five weight. Again, I appreciate the tips and encouragement.


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 Post subject: Re: casting help, please
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:47 pm • # 19 
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That sounds like youre on your way to learning the cast. Practice with heavier lines and longer rods, then come back to lighter stuff when you get a better handle on your skill set.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: casting help, please
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:38 am • # 20 
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keebranch wrote:
That sounds like youre on your way to learning the cast. Practice with heavier lines and longer rods, then come back to lighter stuff when you get a better handle on your skill set.

Les


Happy for you and glad to hear you are hanging in there.
Take the advice Les and Dave offer and you will get it.


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