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 Post subject: Re: I am wondering.....
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:46 pm • # 61 
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Yep, the Remington 870 is to shotguns what the 10/22 is to the semi-auto .22LR. Never had either one of them, but some people do some cool things with them. My dad has a 10/22, the only modification he's done from stock is putting a little scope on it.


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 Post subject: Re: I am wondering.....
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:40 pm • # 62 
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We own three 870 shotguns: two 20's and my old 12. One 20 belongs to my son, the other I got for my wife when we first got married. It had a fixed 28" full choke which was very tight and she was either missing pheasants clean or turning them into burger. I had it punched out to Skeet #2 which is from Winchester's guide and falls between Improved Cylinder and Modified for what I call a half pattern or 50% pattern. Not sure if it needs to be that technical but it does seem to perform really well on flushed game out to 30-40 yards without reducing them to mush. I carried the gun one time on a late season Sharptail grouse hunt. I used buffered #5 loads and got good kills to 50 yards.

My old 870 12 ga had a 30" full choke which was so tight, I used to say it let the shot out - one at a time. Lead shot was legal for web footed fowl back then. I remember I preferred 'baby magnums' 2 3/4" 1 1/2oz buffered and copper plated 2s. I hunted over decoys but I also did a fair bit of pass shooting back then.....I was young and cocky. I busted a lot of honkers way out there (unfortunately I wounded a few too) When I grew up some and solely hunted over decoys, I bought a 26" modified barrel. Steel shot was now the law and steel shot and those old full chokes don't mix. The old 30" barrel is now about 27" long with screw in chokes. It has an I/C choke in it all the time which is about perfect for steel shot over decoys. It is also good for family fun busting blue rocks from my thrower which is about the only scatter gunning I do anymore.

When I lived in Nebraska and was a waterfowl/upland nut, I had three main shotguns which I no longer own: a Synthetic Rem 870 3 1/2in (which btw, such long 3 1/2 inch ammo is one of the biggest manufacturing farces ever sold to the American shooting consumer and that my friends is a fact!), I also had a Weatherby O/U which was for blue rocks and upland birds but I did like the gun for jump shooting ducks too, and I had a Beretta Pintail 3" gun which was a pretty good gun once I sent it back to Beretta twice.....the first time to fix it because it was a single shot and would not cycle two shells, the second time after they returned it to me and it functioned as a semi auto only about half the time so I told them to stick the gun up their A$$! They rebuilt the gun I guess because when it returned, it was very reliable. BTW, I never shot 3" shells for any of my hunting....or seldom did. I believe the British had it right in their notion of a square load where the shot column is no longer than the diameter and with steel shot, speed kills so I went with 1 1/16th oz 2 3/4" loads that went over 1500fps. I shot #3s on ducks and #1's on geese. On passing fowl at around 30 yards (or proper decoy distance) you swing right on the beak of the bird and down it comes. On teal, perhaps a beak and a half (ha ha) as we said which meant if you lead the bird very far you missed.


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 Post subject: Re: I am wondering.....
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:09 pm • # 63 
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Yikes!! Now that's extreme on a 30-30 lever action with that tactical stuff on it .... Ugly as s#^t .... That's ruining a nice old rifle ..wasn't made for those mods .. Have ya ever seen Roy Rogers, The Lone Ranger, Hopalong Cassidy, with an adjustable stock on their lever gun ?? rollin :rollin :rollin

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: I am wondering.....
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:40 pm • # 64 
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Panfisher1 wrote:
Yikes!! Now that's extreme on a 30-30 lever action with that tactical stuff on it .... Ugly as s#^t .... That's ruining a nice old rifle ..wasn't made for those mods .. Have ya ever seen Roy Rogers, The Lone Ranger, Hopalong Cassidy, with an adjustable stock on their lever gun ?? rollin :rollin :rollin

Paul


Yup. Somethings are sick and wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: I am wondering.....
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:17 pm • # 65 
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Adding to the price of ammunition portion of this thread ... We found some of the Hornady .62 gr super .223 all ya want for $26.00 a box of 20 .. The clerk behind the counter handed us a box and asked how many we wanted ?? We said thanks but no thanks ... Amazing prices ....

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: I am wondering.....
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:49 pm • # 66 
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Panfisher1 wrote:
Adding to the price of ammunition portion of this thread ... We found some of the Hornady .62 gr super .223 all ya want for $26.00 a box of 20 .. The clerk behind the counter handed us a box and asked how many we wanted ?? We said thanks but no thanks ... Amazing prices ....

Paul


Two years ago, I was traveling through a small town here in Eastern Idaho. I stopped at a convenience store for a soda water and snickers and found an old faded while Winchester Super X box of 300 H&H 180 gr Silver Tips. He wanted 14 dollars and I bought them.

When I owned my 300 Weatherby, I always kept an eye out for ammo, brass etc. IN 2005, I was in Polsen, ,M ontana and stopped by Wal Mart for something, I forget. I wandered back to the gun section and found they had 11 boxes of Federal Premium 300 Weatherby 180gr Sierra Boattails for 18.00 per box. I bought them all.

I cannot believe .223 shells are now more expensive that that. When I lived in Nebraska, I owned a Ruger m77 UL 20" barrel .223 that I packed in the pick up (in fact it stayed there all the time). I could buy re-manufactured hollow or soft point ammo for 4.99 for 50 rounds. Things are sure different. I know what is to blame but I won't discuss it here even though it has only partly to do with politics.


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 Post subject: Re: I am wondering.....
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:55 pm • # 67 
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I'm also amazed at the prices ..my friend has two boxes of 20 round PMC 223
Ammunition left, we noticed the box has the sticker still on it $4.99 a box
Yikes far cry from $26.00 a box ..

Paul ...


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 Post subject: Re: I am wondering.....
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:58 pm • # 68 
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DCG wrote:
When I lived in Nebraska and was a waterfowl/upland nut, I had three main shotguns which I no longer own: a Synthetic Rem 870 3 1/2in (which btw, such long 3 1/2 inch ammo is one of the biggest manufacturing farces ever sold to the American shooting consumer and that my friends is a fact!),
Just curious why you say that? My dad has a Browning Gold 10ga, IIRC they ONLY make 3 1/2" shells for those. I've never shot it, matter of fact, I don't think I've shot anything other than 2 3/4" with either a 12 or 20ga.

I hope this panic price gouging settles down soon...when I go back to the States I'd like to do some shooting/hunting. I used to pick up four 50 round boxes of .40 S&W for $11 just for a little fun on a Saturday afternoon at the range...shotgun shells (lead) were ~$5 a box...box of 30-06 were ~$10-12, and that was expensive. Farking .223 >$20/box is retarded!


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 Post subject: Re: I am wondering.....
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:59 pm • # 69 
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Cowpokey wrote:
DCG wrote:
When I lived in Nebraska and was a waterfowl/upland nut, I had three main shotguns which I no longer own: a Synthetic Rem 870 3 1/2in (which btw, such long 3 1/2 inch ammo is one of the biggest manufacturing farces ever sold to the American shooting consumer and that my friends is a fact!),
Just curious why you say that? My dad has a Browning Gold 10ga, IIRC they ONLY make 3 1/2" shells for those. I've never shot it, matter of fact, I don't think I've shot anything other than 2 3/4" with either a 12 or 20ga.

I hope this panic price gouging settles down soon...when I go back to the States I'd like to do some shooting/hunting. I used to pick up four 50 round boxes of .40 S&W for $11 just for a little fun on a Saturday afternoon at the range...shotgun shells (lead) were ~$5 a box...box of 30-06 were ~$10-12, and that was expensive. Farking .223 >$20/box is retarded!


Actually, the original 10 ga loading was in a 2 7/8 inch shell. Semi Autos were not available back then and most 10 ga shotguns had two barrels. The old loading patterned far superior to the 3 1/2in shell on moving targets as the shot string was shorter. The 3 1/2 in loading for the narrower 12 ga hull is even worse.

People seem to like patterning shotguns on a stationary paper circle. While this does show some information such as the true direction the pattern is flying in relation to the point it says absolutely nothing about how the shot is flying through the air. What happens is a longer shot column in a hull leads to a long shot string in the air. Shot doesn't fly out at the target in a flat plain, it goes through the air in a long string. The only thing a long shot string gains you is more forgiveness in lead errors but that doesn't do you much good because while you might hit the bird, it mostly happens that you hit the bird with very few pellets, whereas a shorter shot string will hit the bird with more pellets even though you started out with less pellets to start with. You end up with cleaner kills, but your skill has to be more 'on'. I guess on stationary targets like turkeys, a long shell might gain you some advantage, but at the cost of recoil. I hunted turkeys with light recoiling 1 oz of #6's in a 12 ga. in a tight choked gun.

I've always wanted a 10 ga double barrel. It will never shoot 3 1/2in shells, I'll find some 2 7/8in shells for it.

These are just my observations of researching a lot of old time gun writers and 20 years of fowling. I am sure others will disagree with me......and you will find a bunch of people who will absolutely agree with me.


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 Post subject: Re: I am wondering.....
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:31 pm • # 70 
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Makes sense the way you explain it. I did a lot of wing shooting growing up, but never got into the ballistics. A 2 3/4" shell with 4 or 6 shot worked for pretty much everything we hunted...although I did have some quail/dove loads for the early fall pre-phesant warm ups. :D


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 Post subject: Re: I am wondering.....
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:05 am • # 71 
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Dave is dead on about the shot stringing. I try to only use "square" loads in my guns.


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 Post subject: Re: I am wondering.....
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:39 am • # 72 
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I am very interested in how long the shortage will last in an artificial market. A little like the hot Xmas toy. But the Xmas toy has to be purchased by Xmas.

If the stores can jack up prices (like oil companies) in the face of a shortage, things could continue for quite a while. Take a $6 dollar box of 223 now unavailable at any price. Could you get $26 a box if you had it? Probably. Could everyone get that? Not for long, the price would come down on the overstock.

Since ammo comes into stores in relatively small amounts, it could be a long time before public confidence returns. I will bet that folks will snap up .22lr for months, hoarding thousands of rounds per owner. I checked out the stash in the garage and found a couple thousand more than I remembered having, but would buy more if I could.

Not to be political, but the lack of news coverage leads me to suspect that this is not the desired narrative in some circles.


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 Post subject: Re: I am wondering.....
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:03 pm • # 73 
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When I was at a local shop on Friday, thy had a pretty decent supply of ammo. I had called Thursday night to see if they had any 9mm in stock just so I wouldn't drive 20 miles for nothing. They had gotten a large ammo shipment in on Thursday. The cheaper blaster 9mm was in stock, but at higher prices. They had small signs saying that due to ammo shortages there would be no sales or discounts on any ammo.

They did have .223 ammo in stock too, but it was all Premium stuff, not the cheaper FMJ that most buy. For what ever reason, I didn't even look at the rimfire section. I was more worried about getting some Premium 9mm defensive ammo.

One thing is for sure, .30/30 doesn't seem to be in short supply. I can still get Remington .30/30 for just under $20.00 a box, but Hornnady, and the Winchester Supreme is above $20.00. If I had a .30/30 I would certainly be stocking up on it.

Wholesalers, and Retailers ARE taking advantage of the shortage, and charging more.
Long gone are the days of cheap ammo. Most places are getting close to MSRP, if not MSPR, or even higher. Reports I'm seeing about gun shows don't look good. Sellers at shows have become vultures and charging insane prices on everything.


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 Post subject: Re: I am wondering.....
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:17 pm • # 74 
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Since .22lr is also made overseas, is it really possible to dry up that supply? I have to think that .22 could be ginned out in fantastic numbers. Relatively cheap to make, you can triple the price and folks could still afford it. I have to think that a shortage of .22 cannot last long given these parameters.


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 Post subject: Re: I am wondering.....
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:37 pm • # 75 
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Zenkoanhead wrote:
Since .22lr is also made overseas, is it really possible to dry up that supply? I have to think that .22 could be ginned out in fantastic numbers. Relatively cheap to make, you can triple the price and folks could still afford it. I have to think that a shortage of .22 cannot last long given these parameters.



I am baffled as to the reason for 22 ammo shortages and inflation. I guess any way profit can be made, it will be done.


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 Post subject: Re: I am wondering.....
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:43 pm • # 76 
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Zenkoanhead wrote:
Since .22lr is also made overseas, is it really possible to dry up that supply? I have to think that .22 could be ginned out in fantastic numbers. Relatively cheap to make, you can triple the price and folks could still afford it. I have to think that a shortage of .22 cannot last long given these parameters.


You are correct, it's made all over the place. One of the issues with the Euro .22LR is that it tends to be rather expensive. The consequence of that is many won't buy it. Match grade .22 is great, but when it costs as much as centerfire ammo, who really is going to buy it other than Match shooters?

For whatever reason, a lot of the imported ammo has claimed delivery dates that extend into the fall months. My question is, are some wholesale companies playing into the panic that is going on right now and withholding ammo to get higher prices? It makes me wonder. After the election, ammo sales were up, but not like in 2008. After Newtown, most ammo, and many types of firearms disappeared in a matter of a month. Online ammo sellers still don't have much in the way of ammo, but I have found at least the one store locally that has it in stock.


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 Post subject: Re: I am wondering.....
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:54 pm • # 77 
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What is happening, is those with money are somehow getting notified when shipments are arriving and they buy up the entire stock at once. The rest of us, who are trying to buy only a brick or two are just out of luck for now.

Ross Coin and Gun here in Idaho Falls, got in a shipment of 22 ammo and it was sold in minutes.

You know, I would think if these reactionary buyers are the doomsdayer types, they would buy some food....unless they have a good recipe for CCI Chowder. I am not a doomsdayer and believe it or not, quite positive about the future even in gun rights. I do fear such reactionary tendencies. Who knows what such people are capable of if they cannot go through life with some kind of reason. I guess I have a bit more on my mind than gun control.

Like I have always said, even the richest man can starve to death just as fast as the homeless one.


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 Post subject: Re: I am wondering.....
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:16 pm • # 78 
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You can still get some match .22 locally, so there has to be a price point at which it will not clear. I would think the wholesalers would sell everything they had, perhaps just inflating the price as the market will bear. Like gas at the service station.

Unless every factory was running at full capacity already, I would think 22 ammo would rebound quickly. I guess folks could continue to hoard it, but if the shtf for real, how much spare 22 can you carry with you? You have a doomsday bunker to store it or are you counting on the crisis to resolve before the milk in the fridge sours?

Isn't Aguila made in Mexico? How hard could it be to take advantage of demand, no matter how Walter Mitty?


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 Post subject: Re: I am wondering.....
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:35 pm • # 79 
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Zenkoanhead wrote:
You can still get some match .22 locally, so there has to be a price point at which it will not clear. I would think the wholesalers would sell everything they had, perhaps just inflating the price as the market will bear. Like gas at the service station.

Unless every factory was running at full capacity already, I would think 22 ammo would rebound quickly. I guess folks could continue to hoard it, but if the shtf for real, how much spare 22 can you carry with you? You have a doomsday bunker to store it or are you counting on the crisis to resolve before the milk in the fridge sours?

Isn't Aguila made in Mexico? How hard could it be to take advantage of demand, no matter how Walter Mitty?


Reactionary people don't think, they just react. I was in a conversation with a fly fishing friend of mine and he is absolutely certain civil war is looming. He is in absolute panic that he cannot find ammo.

I have to ask, if the crap hits the fan, what can you really do about it? I would think food would be higher on the list of 'must haves' than ammo. How about using the money you are blasting through to buy inflated ammo to pay off some dept? I mean if preparedness is the goal, not sure how buying that much ammo is all that critical. I have always said you can feed yourself with a 22......but if there is no gas? the woods are already full of people hunting food, I guess you can shoot and eat the neighbors cats. If a civil war is looming, will a 22 do you any good?

I think people are just flat loosing their minds. Too many weird movies and video games any more.


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 Post subject: Re: I am wondering.....
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:43 pm • # 80 
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Hey. If the shtf I'm not going for my .22 that's for sure ! If That's one thing
I learned in jungles of Southeast Asia I want my model 12 with a case of Double 00 buck shot, want something that's going to stop that sucker in his tracks, .22 is just
going to piss him off ... That and my .45 will hold em off for awhile ....

Paul ;) ;) ;)


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