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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:24 pm • # 1 
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I see some interest here in the .17 calibers. I really like the seventeens as they tend to shoot very flat and don't push on your shoulder. The .17 HM2 may be the best squirrel cartridge of all time. ( this cartridge is really the .22 stinger LR case necked down to .17 Cal).....the stinger case is just a little bit longer than a standard .22 LR case...the HM2 travels at twice the speed of a .22 LR and will make a clean kill without tearing up the meat as bad as the .17HMR. Its good out a little past 100 yds and the ammo is not too expensive. As a plus, almost any rifle chambered in .22 LR can be rebarreled to .17 HM2. The .17HMR , a necked down .22 WMR case, is a faster, ( 17 grain bullet at about 2,550 FPS) harder hitting round (and very accurate in a good rifle) but it will blow the "stuffing" out of a squirrel. Many coyotes have fallen to the HMR but for a clean coyote kill you will need good shot placement and I would think shots should be kept to not much more than 100 Yds. For crows and such the HMR really shines, good out to at least 200 yds. My favorite .17 Cal round is the .17 Remington. I have a Cooper Varmint in this caliber and my hand load launches a 22 grain bullet at over 4,300 FPS and is very explosive on impact. This little rifle will shoot 5 shot groups around 1/2 inch shooting off the bags. The secret to good accuracy in ANY .17 caliber cartridge is to keep the bore "SHINY" clean.
Just a little bit of fouling will cause the groups to open up much faster than larger bore rifles. I clean after every 5 shots when shooting from the bench and when in the field, (usually not more than 15-25 shots) then, I thoroughly clean the rifle when I get home. The .17's (even the .17 Remington) have almost no recoil. You can watch your shot hit the target through a good scope.
//// Search the WEB for " .17 Winchester Super Mag " /// This is a brand new cartridge coming out that claims 3000 FPS pushing a 20 grain bullet.......""""" And This Is A New RIMFIRE """" That is indeed Impressive for a rimfire. Savage is already gearing up to build new rifles for this new round and I am sure many more will follow. Yes, I like the .17, I believe its growing in popularity every day................There are many more .17 Cal cartridges out there...these are the three I am familiar with. The .17 Hornet sounds interesting as does the .17 Fireball......................Don in SC

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:54 pm • # 2 
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I've played with the two Rimfire rounds over the last 9 years. I bought a Gray Laminated Marlin bolt 17 HMR and used it for a few years on ground squirrels, jack rabbits and rock chucks. I sold it a few years back when 17 HMR ammo went up in price. I also bought a cheap wooden stocked Marlin 17 Mach II as well. My Dad loved mine so much, he bought one too. I found a sale of Eley ammo on sale at Midway for 3.50/box and bought hundreds of boxes. Later I found ammo on sale at a local hardware/feed store for 2.99/box. I bought all they had, totally thousands of rounds.

As for comparison, I still prefer the Mach II round over the HMR as the gain is not worth the extra cost of ammo. Besides, I found that in close the Mach II round killed better on varmints, even rock chucks. I think sometimes there is a window of optimum impact velocity and above or below that window opens up problems. For us, the HMR round did not even consistently kill cottontail rabbits unless headshot until ranges were beyond 100 yards. From there to 200 yards was smooth. Beyond 200 yards is outside the proper effective range for the HMR.......and I will add, it is NO coyote round. The Mach II round only gives up about 30 yards in the field and seems to kill cleaner in close. I've killed hundreds of rock chucks with my Mach II....mostly with headshots, but even body hits, I saw that chucks went down rather quick. With body shots on the HMR, they all seemed to get down their holes.

I shot one coyote with the 17 HMR.....100 yards away and it ran off and was lost. I would think a Centerfire 17 would be a hoot. I've been eyeing the new 17 Hornet. When they get it in better guns, I think I will jump on one. I almost bought a Remington BDL 17 Rem once. I should have. I think a 204 might be equally good. I love my Dad's 22-250 and I miss my Ruger 220 Swift really bad. It was coyote shooting machine.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:37 pm • # 3 
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DCG...... I am with you, I like the little HM2 over the HMR. I have an Anschutz model 1502 heavy barrel (low-end Annie) that I bought from a friend that needed money. The Eley ammo will out shoot the Hornady "hands-down". I too bought plenty when it was on sale. The sad thing is, the HM2 isn't as popular as the HMR. I believe the ammo will be available for a long time but lots of people have sold their HM2's thinking it was going to be dropped. I bought my "Annie" (like new) for $400 and I don't believe this model / caliber is being imported anymore............Mine will keep five shots within an inch @ 100 yds if the wind isn't bad. Its one of the nicest rimfires I have ever had. I don't have as many places to hunt anymore.....so most of my shooting is off the bench now. Ammo has gone up so much now that good .22 LR ammo cost more than we paid for the Eley HM2 a short time back. It definitely is the most BANG for the buck.....squirrels don't stand a chance when hit with the littlest .17.
......................Don in SC


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:32 pm • # 4 
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Oops! Just bought a Savage HMR and haven't even made it to the range. How is it possible that the M2 can hit harder? Faster certainly, but doesn't the polytip of the HMR tend to expand violently up to 150 yards? I purchased 17 and 20 grain rounds, HP, poly, and FMJs, so am interested in applications for each.

Very interested in the adequacy of the HMR for larger game and Zombies. From YouTube I got the impression that if you can make the shot at 300 yards the impact was nothing to sneeze at. Comparison with the .223 for SHTF? Don't want to go all Walter Mitty but I can store a bunch of 17 relative to .223.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:31 pm • # 5 
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Terminal ballistics are a weird science. The Mach II is slower then the HMR. You would think the HMR because it is faster, hits harder, therefore kills better. Roy Weatherby made a fortune selling velocity and the craze resumes today. When you look at physics, if you double the bullet weight you double the energy, but if you double the velocity, you multiply the energy even more....sounds good but it isn't so simple. Yes the Mach II hits with less velocity, but being slower, the bullet expansion and energy transfer must be more optimum for that bullet....and at least my experience shows the clean kills are a bit more consistent than with the faster round. I can't explain it.

Jumping to big game, I had a 300 Weatherby for a while. It was a fantastic rifle, very accurate and flat shooting......but when hunting the river bottoms, I seen whitetail deer run off after being hit with it. They didn't get far but they did run. Then I saw whitetails dumped on their butts when hit at the same close range from a 30-30 or 300 Savage. Now, take the 300 Weatherby to Idaho and level on a mulie buck 350 yards away and he drops....the same bullet, the same game....but the impact velocity is less on the distant deer.

Many people seem to buy into the notion that the bullet was too fast up close and went through the animal too fast and didn't do much damage. The truth of the matter, is the slower bullet will usually out penetrate the faster bullet (with some diminishing returns of course) and perhaps in the case of the diminutive rimefire 17's with the 17gr plastic tip bullet, things are more at an optimum with the slower Mach II round than the faster HMR round. The faster bullet likely blew up, over expanded, wasting engergy or poorly penetrating, or deflecting weirdly. I never tried the slower 20gr loading in the HMR....maybe it would be better. But for the 17gr bullet on the HMR, I saw poor performance on game bigger than squirrels until the range extended beyond 100 yards.

What it boils down to when deciding things like optimum velocity, bullet design, etc......ask not what these things will do to the animal, rather it is better to ask what the animal is going to do to these things.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:55 pm • # 6 
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Hey Don,

Have you ever noticed the smell of the burnt powder from the Eley Mach II ammo smells weird? I love the round and Eley shoots very nice....the empty case just smells funny.

It is funny how different powders smell different. My favorite 45 Colt load (Ruger sixguns only) was 18.5 grs 2400 behind an RCBS 270gr SAA or the old RCBS 265gr SWC cast bullet that had a nice soft lube like Javelina. Velocity was around 1000fps, recoil mild, it would still shoot through both shoulders on a huge whitetail. I loved how the gun smoked...the combination of a nice soft melted bullet lube and a smoky, filthy gun powder like 2400, especially the old stuff. I love that filthy old gun powder. My 357 like it too under a 160gr Lyman cast bullet. It was just nice to run a cylinder full through the old hogleg and see that bullet hit true and drifting smoke from the muzzle and smelling that dirty old case when you push them out.....reloaders are weird.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:44 am • # 7 
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Good theory Dave. The 40 grain velocitor 22lr has great expansion and penetration according to the reports. Optimal velocity, bullet weight and design?

I got the HMR with the expectation that one of the various loads would be good at 150 to 200 yards against mid sized game. - like coyotes. A load to bridge the gap up to 223. I do not intend to shoot any 4 legged creatures, but the comparison is useful. The FMJ in 20 grains is surprisingly effective from all reports.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:42 am • # 8 
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Almost purchased a Taurus 970 6.5 revolver in .17 ..went with 22LR instead ..my brother owns a rifle in 17 and says its a tack driver at 100 yards ...

Paul


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:20 am • # 9 
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Panfisher1 wrote:
Almost purchased a Taurus 970 6.5 revolver in .17 ..went with 22LR instead ..my brother owns a rifle in 17 and says its a tack driver at 100 yards ...

Paul


You will be happier with a 22. I owned a Ruger Single Six Hunter 17 HMR for awhile.....it was louder than my 357 Magnum. I traded it off on a Browning Buckmark.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:45 am • # 10 
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I have heard that the 17 is loud. Much loader than a 22. Will see when I get 2 rifles to the range the same day. Would like to have a quiet centerfire rifle, but the physics is wrong I guess.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:03 pm • # 11 
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Zenkoanhead wrote:
I have heard that the 17 is loud. Much loader than a 22. Will see when I get 2 rifles to the range the same day. Would like to have a quiet centerfire rifle, but the physics is wrong I guess.

The 17 isn't bad in a rifle....just handguns. The HMR rifle will be a bit louder...about like a 22 magnum, maybe a touch 'crackier' but not bad. In a handgun, it is terrible.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:15 pm • # 12 
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My brother swears by the accuracy of the 17 HMR .. Takes lot to impress him
With firearms ..His interest at his age is still varmint hunting .... ..22-250' .222 rem and .257 Roberts ....big heavy barrel accurate rifles, really reach out .....
Alot of fun hunting woodchuck in the cow pastures up state New York ....
When I was a youngster and lived and worked On a milk farm upstate there used to be a bounty paid by the cow farmers for woodchuck tails, three bucks a tail, if milk cow stepped into a chuck hole and broke a leg it had to be destroyed ..those were the days ....hard work but healthy living ....fishing was good also ...

Paul


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:52 pm • # 13 
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The .17 HMR is a great cartridge.......best Starling/crow/blue-jay medicine around. My HMR is a Savage heavy-barrel Lamo-thumbhole clip-fed and very accurate. Accuracy seems to fluctuate depending on the ammo...(one lot to another) as well as different brands. It is a shame Eley doesn't make HMR ammo.
Yes.......ALL Eley ammo smells funny when fired (.22 LR too). But their ammo is much more consistent than Hornady or CCI
or Winchester / federal etc. So the smell doesn't bother me..... With Eley ammo, accuracy from one lot to another is still VERY close. Of course you get what you pay for......Eley as well as Lapua cost a lot more. (Lapua Midas + is the most accurate .22 LR ammo I have ever fired). But it now cost almost $.45 a round. I bought some when it was $.18 a round or I wouldn't have any today. I don't shoot competition any more so what little I have on hand will last a long time.

Here is a picture of three 5 shot groups shot with my Savage BTV .22 LR using Lapua Midas +
/..............The Savage is a good shooter, but NOT a match rifle.............../

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:37 pm • # 14 
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Tailingloop wrote:
The .17 HMR is a great cartridge.......best Starling/crow/blue-jay medicine around. My HMR is a Savage heavy-barrel Lamo-thumbhole clip-fed and very accurate. Accuracy seems to fluctuate depending on the ammo...(one lot to another) as well as different brands. It is a shame Eley doesn't make HMR ammo.
Yes.......ALL Eley ammo smells funny when fired (.22 LR too). But their ammo is much more consistent than Hornady or CCI
or Winchester / federal etc. So the smell doesn't bother me..... With Eley ammo, accuracy from one lot to another is still VERY close. Of course you get what you pay for......Eley as well as Lapua cost a lot more. (Lapua Midas + is the most accurate .22 LR ammo I have ever fired). But it now cost almost $.45 a round. I bought some when it was $.18 a round or I wouldn't have any today. I don't shoot competition any more so what little I have on hand will last a long time.

Here is a picture of three 5 shot groups shot with my Savage BTV .22 LR using Lapua Midas +
/..............The Savage is a good shooter, but NOT a match rifle.............../

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Those are tight .22 groups.

My Rem 541-S shoots about 1 inch at 100 yards, a bit less with eley ammo. I could never afford much Eley ammo and I never shot Lapua. When I shot small bore silhouette back in the early 80's, I used the 541-S for my light gun and a borrowed Annie single shot for my heavy gun. It had a 12X Leupold with a fine dot. The only ammo he shot through the gun was Eley. He shot 1/2 MOA at 100 yards.

It is funny when I bought the 541-S, I really wanted a Kimber but could not afford the extra 150 bucks. As I understand my 541-S in the nice condition it is in is now worth more....a little bit. I see lots of used Kimbers and I hardly ever see a 541-S....though the Kimber is classier.

My Daughter shooting the 541
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The old HMR out shooting ground squirrels along the Little Lost River, Idaho. The Little Lost River is a fine small stream so dragging a fly rod along is proper order. Brookies, Bows and Bull Trout.
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My old Ruger Single Six 17 HMR
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My Father in Law trying for a "furby" (ground squirrel) with his 17 HMR revolver as his friend looks on.
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