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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:49 pm • # 1 
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:28 am • # 2 
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It amazes me that the politicians pay no attention to the real facts on murders and crimes committed with "assault weapons", which are miniscule when compared to the ones committed with handguns, knives, etc. "Let's ban the assault weapons!!!" - such foolish hysteria.

Jerry or Jeremy, if I'm getting in an area you'd prefer not be discussed here, then please delete this thread.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:02 pm • # 3 
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Yes it is foolish... Oh those guns look so evil we should ban them and the "clips" (yes I know they are magazines) that hold so many rounds :lol Not sure if they understand what the 2A is about these days...


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:48 pm • # 4 
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I give the 2A 100% support even though I do support back ground checks. That said, I really don't have an interest in such firearms as these. I don't ever plan on going to war, I don't need anything other than my Remington 870 to defend my home, my Browning 308 to hunt with, my 17 Mach II for pests, my Charter Arms Bulldog as protection while fishing and my 45 Colt for defense against bears when in grizzly country. I have no plans on participating in a revolution which I don't believe would amount to much more than dozens of "Ruby Ridge" type scenarios scattered about the country....most extremists are mostly talk IMHO. If the bullets started flying, I doubt there would be much staying power in most folks....some, yes, but most no.

Back to guns as a hobby, like fly fishing, in the gun world, there is something for everyone. There was a time when I had a hard time accepting Assault Rifles, especially in the world of fair chase hunting (the only hunting I approve of) but after awhile, I grew up some and gained a lot of tolerance for things I don't like.

I have gained some peace in that the anti gun crowd will likely not 100% get their way....at least on the national level. On the state level, we are already seeing bad things happen against the 2A, which is one reason I have such a hard time with giving so much weight behind things like 'states rights'. (hope that didn't open up a can of worms on myself)

I bought my son a Colt M4 OPS .22 a year and a half ago. It functions great so long as you shoot only the highest quality ammo in it. It absolutely hates bulk ammo...which is fine. Even my son agrees that having the gun jam up three or four times through a 30 round magazine full of ammo, is actually a good thing. 30 rounds of CCI Mini Mag ammo feeds very nice (at least in the summer and with a fresh clean gun) but gets kind of expensive....especially now. CCI Stingers function without hick up but dang, the cost.

My Son announced to me that one day he would like to use the gun as trading fodder and get something else. He doesn't shoot it much anymore, preferring his Remington Nylon 66 for general plinking.

For me, the faster I see people shooting up ammo with HCM's through a semi auto, the more I feel the urge to just break out the old 50 Cal Hawken and slow things way down....but that is just me. I could not afford to even shoot up CCI Stingers through my Son's Colt M4 .22 let alone 30 rounds of .223 at a buck a pop, as fast as I can pull the trigger.

Again, this is my opinion. I hope I stayed sufficiently away from politics in this post and if I didn't, I offer my sincerest apology to the forum and I will edit the post.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:13 pm • # 5 
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Usually when folks propose a change in the law, any law, it is with the promise that the change is for the better. Banning black guns does not quite pass the smell test. The fact that the 2dA forbids such actions does not even slow the train for some. With the Heller decision the law is really clear, not that it was ever really in dispute. I actually thought it might be a 9-0 decision, the legal history was so very plain and the verbage very tightly drafted. Think of an eccentric millionaire leaving everything to his pet hamster. Might be dumb as hell, but you can do it and be very clear that you intended to do it.

To expand a bit, the 2dA was designed to encourage armed rebellion against a tyrannical government. Does not matter one jot if the notion is practical today or not, or whether the current govt is trustworthy or not; or whether a militia today could last more than 5 minutes against a tank or a nuke. Does not matter if the crazies dress up like the Joker or if the murder rate spikes into the stratosphere or if the prairie dog population stages a comeback. Honestly, it might be the worst law ever, but it is legally solid, as solid as a law can be. I happen to support it, but what I think and what everybody else thinks is completely irrelevant, unless of course there is a vote to change it. Good luck with that.

It is ironic that a law so little open to interpretation could be so politically laden.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:31 am • # 6 
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Ah the Nylon 66 I bought one at age of 12? based on the old ad campaign of them shooting dolphins in gill nets. We have come a long way. I used to shoot 300 rounds a day out of that thing.

Assault weapons.... I agree I don't plan on needing one.....


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:47 am • # 7 
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Needing a black gun? Arguably some buy these guns only for the symbolic value and some seek to ban them for the same reason. I suspect Joe milita is better served by a brick or two of 22 lr. I suspect that this is the reason 22 ammo is so hard to find. I traded for a 243 wssm a month ago and think it would be more effective than a 223.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:32 am • # 8 
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Zenkoanhead wrote:
Needing a black gun? Arguably some buy these guns only for the symbolic value and some seek to ban them for the same reason. I suspect Joe milita is better served by a brick or two of 22 lr. I suspect that this is the reason 22 ammo is so hard to find. I traded for a 243 wssm a month ago and think it would be more effective than a 223.


Anything is more effective than a .223. I have owned several, mostly in bolt action varmint applications and I can say that no .223 loading kept up with my 22-250 and my 220 Swift I used to own. The 223 wasn't even close. I have often wondered why the US military has clung to it so long, with all the technology out there coming up with better stuff.

I think you hit the nail on the head....buy one as a statement. I can see that. I see no reason to own any firearm that serves no purpose I would use it for....reminds me of the 12wt fly rod I bought a few years back, then sold when it became clear to me selling it to buy something more useful made more sense. Now those who like guns like that, again, great on ya. My Father in Law is one of them...he has gone absolutely bananas...politics, religion, the last days, forming a militia (at his age....Ha!), the whole dinner plate complete with salad and desert. Oh, the look on his face and the anger in his eyes when I told him that if he was planning something, he would just have to do it without me. We have spoke few words sense.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:05 am • # 9 
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DCG wrote: "I grew up some and gained a lot of tolerance for things I don't like."

:applause
feels good, doesn't it?

As a Canadian, I have no skin in the 2nd Amendment game. I own 9 firearms of various configurations, but they are all for hunting/pest control vs. personal protection or citizen militia purposes. Our cultural evolution and history are clearly different from yours. Not better, not worse, just different. I've lived long enough to know that there is no 'one true path to enlightenment'. :)

As a retired policy/legislation wonk, I am curious about American views of the amendments.
There seems to be the ability here to discuss such issues with a modicum of maturity and a minimum of hysteria, so if I may, let me ask the following:

Do Americans similarly worry about their government's adherence to the 1st amendment?
brent


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:52 am • # 10 
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Hysteria here in the USA is at an all time high! Its just a flat out madden rush they think they gonna grab your guns. They dodnt even have the man power or knowledge to pursue the guns in the beginwith. Hopefully ammo become more readily available and cheaper in the near future.

My muzzleloaders are way more fun to shoot! I love my new .32 cal variment smokepole!:)


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:16 am • # 11 
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Brent - Freedom of religion or freedom of speech? Most everyone stridently defends both - except when their personal ox is being gored. The 2d A receives much less attention except for the periodic calls for bans. There would be much less support for 1st A bans. The 5th A comes up with some frequency and figures in the airport security debates and drone attacks.

Texans have a strong regional identity and tend to joke about secession. We are the Lone Star State and would do it again. As David indicates, there is a fairly strong "State's Rights" movement as voters become increasingly unhappy with the federal government. There has always been a fair degree of suspicion about the Fed and what they are up too. I get a kick out of Will Rogers quips. He was from Oklahoma.

As David says, Idaho is very popular with the hard-core types.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:24 am • # 12 
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Phish - Most of the problem is that the Fed is terminally afflicted with do- something-itis. What passes for statesmanship is akin to a 5 year old with a box of crayons and time on their hands.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:42 am • # 13 
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I got black rifles out of my system during my 6 years in the Army National Guard. At a $1.00 a round it will stay out of my system.
I bought a single shot 22lr to slow target practice down. Like the muzzle loader I enjoy the slower pace the single shot brings. Makes each shot count more and really challenges my abilities, especially with no scope. Takes a while to shoot up a 50 round box.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:14 am • # 14 
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zenkoanhead:
Actually, I was most curious about the 'freedom FROM religion' aspects of the 1st, particularly as it pertains to government and government decision-making.
From my limited understanding of the origins of your country, the folks generally accepted as being the first european settlers, and the 'founding folk', were, at least in part, seeking freedom from religious persecution and inordinate interference in their lives from a related 'official' government belief system.
On the other hand, of late I hear much about 'faith-based government' and 'faith based politics'.
Again, got no dog in the fight, just a spectator.
brent


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:00 am • # 15 
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wheezeburnt wrote:
zenkoanhead:
Actually, I was most curious about the 'freedom FROM religion' aspects of the 1st, particularly as it pertains to government and government decision-making.
From my limited understanding of the origins of your country, the folks generally accepted as being the first european settlers, and the 'founding folk', were, at least in part, seeking freedom from religious persecution and inordinate interference in their lives from a related 'official' government belief system.
On the other hand, of late I hear much about 'faith-based government' and 'faith based politics'.
Again, got no dog in the fight, just a spectator.
brent



This is just the "American Way"...we rise up, shout a lot of things, go bananas, prepare to act on those emotions, then we settle down, go back to our homes and mutter less noisily. I think it is in our DNA.

Me.....I just go quietly fishing. Many others too.....but there are some of us......oh, there most certainly is some of us.....


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:52 pm • # 16 
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wheezeburnt wrote:
Actually, I was most curious about the 'freedom FROM religion' aspects of the 1st, particularly as it pertains to government and government decision-making.
From my limited understanding of the origins of your country, the folks generally accepted as being the first european settlers, and the 'founding folk', were, at least in part, seeking freedom from religious persecution and inordinate interference in their lives from a related 'official' government belief system.
brent

You're onto something here.
The folks who left to come here were want to escape the yoke of the 'state religion' which in the case of living in the UK was the Church of England. If a protestant were residing in a majority catholic state moving to America offered a solution as well. Of interest, Lord Baltimore, a british citizen who while living in England created the "plantation" of Maryland as a refuge for British Catholics wishing to seek haven in the colonies. Again America offered a place to worship freely.
So IMO the discussion is not so much about the right to express your reigion, but being able to practice your faith without persecution...That opinion has evolved into something totally different; that is, there are those who feel that any public expression of faith shouldn't be tolerated or condoned.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:25 pm • # 17 
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Interesting discussion, while I hope we haven't deviated from the topic too far, though that seems to be the nature of most discussions among humans.

I think there is no possible way for all to be on the same page as far as interpretation of the rule of democratic law coexisting along side the concept of liberty....nor should we. Were it so, there would be no possible path for progress, individual thought, enlightenment, education, interpretation of lessons learned and solutions to problems, etc. What seems to be amazing to me is the idea of liberty seems to as much or even more, be more alined with mindset, rather than ideology, arbitrary geographical borders and faith. One is as free or bound as one chooses to be in his mind....for the most part. I like the notion of Amendment 1 pertaining to both freedom to worship, or not to worship rather than one or the other....which boils down to freedom of thought. I for one see as much personal bondage - personal mental bondage that is, coming from inside the private arena of faith based organization, ideologies, etc than I see from the rule of democratic law. The only difference being, nobody is holding a gun to their heads making them believe that way, or suffer imprisonment or other such punishments for their unwillingness to submit to authority which is trying to dictate their belief and consciousness. I have also observed throughout my life, fear seems to motivate some humans more than education, thought and dreams, which is very unfortunate.


Last edited by DCG on Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:42 pm • # 18 
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[quote="DCG

This is just the "American Way"...we rise up, shout a lot of things, go bananas, prepare to act on those emotions, then we settle down, go back to our homes and mutter less noisily. [/quote]

:rollin :rollin :rollin

Here in Canuckistan, if we get angry with the way things are going, why we sit ourselves down and fire off an irate letter. Might even copy it to the newspaper, if we get angry enough. :D


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:21 pm • # 19 
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Brent,

Ever since Obama has started in on his unconstitutional gun control agenda, I have been writing letters to him, and my representatives on pretty much a weekly basis. I get replies from my reps in congress, but never an acknowledgement from the White House. Since I am against all forms of gun control, and Obama doesn't like people who disagree with him, I don't actually expect a response. Lot's of people in the US write, email, or phone their reps, over issues.

________________

Now, on to the black rifle deal. I don't own one. The closest thing to a so called "assault rifle" I have ever owned was an SKS. I had to sell it off a few years ago to help pay for a surgery. I wish I still had it. I don't like AR-15's, not because I think they don't have a sporting use, because they do, it's just the design I despise. I have a thing for old military surplus bolt action rifles, I just enjoy them and their history.

As for the .223/5.56mm cartridge, it's a round I never had any use for. Sure, it's original intent was for military use, but the best applications for it are varmints, and target shooting/competition. I think it's a pathetic military round. As Dave mentioned, it's bested by the .22/250, and the .220 Swift (for civilian use). If I was going to get a .22 centerfire rifle, it would be a bolt action chambered for the .22 Hornet.

I also like lever action rifles, but don't own one right now.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:16 pm • # 20 
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You fellas know that the venerable 870 was used heavily in the military, along with several other pump shotguns. If a general ban on military "style" weapons where to be proposed, the old Remington would be on the list. Henny Penny? Probably. But I cringe a little thinking about it.


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