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 Post subject: The FBI is going 9mm
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:29 am • # 1 
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For those who may be interested, the FBI is going back to the 9mm. I happen to think it's a good idea. There are many LE agencies around the country that have been transitioning back to 9mm from the .40, .357 Sig, and .45acp.

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity ... e&_cview=0


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 Post subject: Re: The FBI is going 9mm
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:53 am • # 2 
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The 9mm is a capable round when used with the right bullet. Military Hard Ball Bullets Suck!

Enjoy,

The Gill Guy


Last edited by The Gill Guy on Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The FBI is going 9mm
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:31 am • # 3 
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Correct, all FMJ pistol ammo sucks, including FMJ .45acp. The FBI does allow some agents to carry 9mm right now, normally the ones that have issues shooting the .40 well enough. I believe the current FBI 9mm load is the latest version of the Winchester Ranger bonded, which is a decent bullet.


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 Post subject: Re: The FBI is going 9mm
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:19 pm • # 4 
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I hope the 9X19 works for them.........with the .45ACP you don't need "trick" bullets.............Don in SC


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 Post subject: Re: The FBI is going 9mm
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:51 am • # 5 
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While I'm the first person to jump up and holler that it's all about where you hit 'em, not what you hit 'em with, I suuuure do like those .45 Hydra-Shoks. If they made me go to a 9 tomorrow, I wouldn't feel undergunned, but as long as the choice is mine I'll carry the .45. I tell the folks who ask that I carry it to compensate for my small earlobes...............

I'm glad I work for an agency that lets me carry whatever I want, as long as I can qualify with it. I do own and carry a 9mm, but it comes with a 10 1/2" barrel and 30 round magazines. If I had the discretionary funds I'd convert it to a 10mm. It's those damned small earlobes again........


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 Post subject: Re: The FBI is going 9mm
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:51 am • # 6 
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Hipshot, just wait till the new Speer Gold Dot G2 series of ammo is released next year. The limited amount of info so far discussed by Dr. Gary Roberts suggests that his gel and barrier testing make this new bullet one of the very best. Another bit of info I heard was that a LEO was recently in a FBI field office, and asked an agent if Speer/ATK had already put the new G2 in their hands, at which the agent produced a box of the G2 in 147 grain 9mm.

This stuff looks interesting. I hope that Speer/ATK put it out for civilian sale just like the regular Gold Dots, if so I'll be getting some of the 147 9mm. http://handgunplanet.com/news/first-loo ... t-g2-ammo/


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 Post subject: Re: The FBI is going 9mm
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:42 pm • # 7 
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Yes, bullets have progressed significantly in the last generation. I used to consider the 9mm a marginal defense round, but with today's ammunition even a .380 can be a viable option. One caveat: I wouldn't consider "Because the Feds are doing it" to be a rational justification for anything. All too often their conclusions have been founded in political considerations rather than practical reasons.


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 Post subject: Re: The FBI is going 9mm
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:20 pm • # 8 
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hipshot wrote:
One caveat: I wouldn't consider "Because the Feds are doing it" to be a rational justification for anything. All too often their conclusions have been founded in political considerations rather than practical reasons.


I totally agree with that statement. The FBI blamed the whole Miami shootout failure on the Winchester 115 grain Silvertip, although when Platt was shot the bullet did exactly what it was designed to do, expand and penetrate to around 10". We had to study the Miami shootout in the police academy (yes I was a cadet, but never took the State test),
and I came away with the conclusion that it was poor tactics on behalf of the agents involved, and lack of preparedness that ended up in tragedy. At that time, everyone was on the light, fast bullet bandwagon, which we know now generally results in rapid robust expansion, but less than stellar penetration.

Also, none of the alphabet agencies seem to agree on what caliber, make and model of weapon, or bullet to issue to agents. Also, while the FBI has decided to go back to 9mm, the Army says 9mm sucks (FMJ in any service cailber is sub-par compared to JHP), and wants a larger caliber. I personally go with independent testing based on the IWBA protocol rather than the FBI tests.

For a long time, the FBI was using Gold Dot ammo, then switched over to Winchester Ranger Bonded, which I believe was for financial reasons alone, being that the Ranger ammo with the "Q" product code is generally cheaper to purchase than Speer Gold Dots.
I've seen the Ranger product line, both Ranger T series, and Bonded fail in independent testing numerous times, whereas you almost never see Gold Dots fail in any testing, be it Government, or independent.

For me personally, I am after the best 9mm load for 3" barreled guns since I carry a M&P Shield. While a good many loads pass testing in service sized guns with 4"-5" barrels, some have proven to be complete failures in the small subcompact guns so common with civilian users these days.


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 Post subject: Re: The FBI is going 9mm
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:15 pm • # 9 
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Have you tried 124 Hydra-Shoks in your Shield? If I remember correctly, they have a +P loading and a "standard velocity" loading with that bullet. I don't have a 9mm pistol to use for testing, but that load always looked like a good short-barrel load to me, and I've always liked the Hydra-Shoks in any caliber.

An interesting aside on 9mm loads: many years ago the agency I was working for at the time mandated that the only carbines we could carry on patrol were Steyr, H&K, or Colt 9mm, and barrel length had to be 9" to 16" (I know, I could never figure that one out either). I got a hellacious buy on a 9mm Colt that was part of an overorder by a Houston alphabet office. It had a 16" barrel. I found that it loved anything in a 147, but lighter bullets just weren't accurate in it. I decided to Form 1 it, and cut it to 10.5". While waiting on the paperwork, I chronographed a number of loads in the 16" tube. I figured that the shorter tube would yield higher velocities, due to decreased barrel friction. After all, they're all loaded for pistol length barrels, right? When I got the paperwork back and cut the barrel, I went back out and chronographed the same loads. In every case, the velocities were virtually identical! It's been too long ago; I can't find any of my notes, and I couldn't even tell you which loads I clocked any more. But I was quite surprised. I do recall that there were some 147s, some 124s, and (I think) some one thirty somethings. But I could be wrong about that; at my age memory can be a dangerous thing.......

Let us know if you find a good 3" 9mm load; I instruct CHL classes and basic handgun classes, as well as cops, and shorty nines are very popular. I'm frequently asked for ammo recommendations, and without a nine of my own it's hard for me to recommend anything.


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 Post subject: Re: The FBI is going 9mm
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:26 am • # 10 
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I'm all for the .45 ..my understanding is the military has asked for bids on
A 1911,.45 platform to replace the existing handgun, I can recall when in South east Asia hitting charlie at 10-15 yards with 9mm multiple times and he ran right by me and finally fell over, no sir I want something that's going to knock you on your arse immediately if not sooner ..that's why my EDC is a Glock30 .. I'd carry my taurus judge as EDC if it wasn't so heavy ..Best handgun out if the box the M30 I've ever owned ..you can have the pea shooters, I want something that's going to tear up some flesh, put you in shock quickly ....

Paul

And I also agree totally with the poster regarding political intervention in purchase
Of firearms ....they surely have a way to screw things up!


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 Post subject: Re: The FBI is going 9mm
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:54 pm • # 11 
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I have shot a box of hydra-shok 147 grain through my shield and it funtioned fine, but I've seen no IWBA protocol testing on any of the hydra-shok loads from a 3" barrel. What I have seen is some testing done with them in full sizes guns and in 9mm, .40, and 45, and I've seen enough failures to expand to warrant me not choosing them as my main carry load. Federal HST on the other hand has performed very well in every test I've seen it used in, no matter what barrel length is used. HST is at the top performance wise.

I got bit by the .40 bug back in 1998. I was in my mid 20's, believed everything I read in Guns and Ammo, Handguns magazine, and Combat Handguns mag. The FBI had adopted the cartridge, all the articles I read claimed its superiority over the 9mm (I had a nice S&W 915 back then) so I just had to have one. I even bought the 165 grain Gold Dot load that the FBI was using in thier 40's for a time. By 2004 I had a change of heart and went back to 9mm. By then, 9mm jhp loads had evolved and ammo manufacturers were making bullets that all seemed to perform to the same standard ie. all were designed to penetrate in the 12"-18" range after passing through heavy clothing or 4 layers of heavy denim.
9mm, 357 sig, 40, and 45 jhp bullets were all now being developed and tweeked to this spec. Now, 10 years later, the technology has improve even more and is still evolving. Why carry a larger caliber with more recoil and muzzle blast, an less ammo capacity?

I went to 45 for a very short time in 2005/2006 but still had a 9mm. I got rid of the 45's. Now I won't bother to ever own a .40 or 45 again. 45 costs more than 9mm, less capacity, and doesn't offer a significant performance advantage over today's top performing 9mm defensive loads. 9mm is also the world standard military an LE cartridge, and there must be a reason for that.

Everyone has their own opinion in the caliber debate and everyone thinks they are right. For me my personal needs are covered with the 9mm.
Everyone else is free to choose what they like, and that's fine with me, I don't care what other carry these days. I've studied independent bullet testing for 10 years and continue to do so, as well as watched as many LE dash cam shooting vids as I could get my mits on.

Now that I carry a small subcompact 9mm, bullet selection is a bit more critical since most service caliber loads have been designed for full size guns and LE applications, but there has been a shift in that area since short barreled guns are now in wide use by CCW folks. I've been following this guy for a bit now because he is testing loads in 3" 9mms which is now extensive and still ongoing. He also has some extensive .380 testing for pocket size guns like the Ruger LCP.

http://m.youtube.com/user/ShootingTheBull410

Sent from my phone so please excuse the spelling errors.


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 Post subject: Re: The FBI is going 9mm
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:38 am • # 12 
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"9mm is also the world standard military an LE cartridge, and there must be a reason for that."
Although the 9mm is a perfectly capable cartridge with modern ammunition, bear in mind that a military handgun performs an entirely different function than a LE or personal defense weapon. They just aren't used all that often in combat, and are basically backup, or last ditch options. A 9mm with milspec ball ammo is certainly not an effective manstopper. They had to standardize on something, and the 9mm was chosen. I don't know that it was chosen for its performance. I know that in Europe it's considered a large, powerful cartridge, and I imagine that was a factor.

I don't know what part of the country you live in, but down here the 9 is not a predominant cartridge with LE. I know that a lot of agencies up north, especially the larger ones, issue weapons and ammo (we buy our own) and the 9 has a stronger presence up there. I have to wonder -- and I have no data to support any conclusions -- if many of those agencies chose the 9 because "tha guvamint does it" (seldom a sound basis for choice), or because of lower costs (certainly a valid justification, as long as performance parameters are met), or because of training issues. I do know that in the agencies I have seen down here where the officers are permitted to purchase their own weapons, the .40 S&W seems to be the frontrunner. Again, that's just an anecdotal observation; I have no data to back that up. I sorta got the impression that back when the .40 enjoyed a surge in popularity, many agencies had already committed to the 9, and weren't about to change for financial reasons. I do like the .40, although I don't own one at the moment; the one Glock I've owned was a .40. I have noticed that in recent years, the 9 seems to be gaining popularity, and I believe that is due to more consistent terminal ballistics and a better selection of affordable, reliable, quality handguns to choose from.


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 Post subject: Re: The FBI is going 9mm
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:59 am • # 13 
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Hipshot... Great interesting informative thread, I'm enjoying it thank you, but I sit here and marvel at the so called ( not you ) Monday morning quarterbacks that can reflect on the caliber they would choose without any practical experience or real time experience, then again there aren't many of us around with that experience, mine obviously was acquired defending this great country of ours. Bottom line I want the biggest and baddest weapon to end whatever scenario I'm in very quickly, I don't want to have to check the perps pulse to know he's dead, I want to just look at him and know I've taken care of business .. If one has never been shot or shot at its a different perspective, therefore my preference of a .45 .. To stand in place with someone coming at you bent on destroying your life and squeeze off systematically x amount of rounds takes a lot of real time training and guts .. Read and watch videos all you want, until you've experienced it you cannot fully appreciate the adrenaline rush, stand there after the event and reflect , Wow I've just unknowingly **** in my pants, get the picture .. Many a good man did not survive these confrontations because they where under gunned, but that's a subject for and of another time, I just hope our government has learned something, I seriously doubt it ...

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: The FBI is going 9mm
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:27 pm • # 14 
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Panfisher1, I think we've all gone through the stage jkurtz7 referred to, where we accept the word of the gunrag gurus as gospel. I know I spent some time in that mode as a young man. Fortunately, most of us don't get the practical experience needed to realistically assess terminal ballistics. The biggest thing I've found is that minor factors often have major effects on the results; I've seen crazy things happen from gunshot wounds. I've been shot several times, and the closest I came to checking out was a Remington 9mm 115 JHP to the hand; I nearly bled out. Like you, I like the .45, but I'd have no qualms about using a 9mm with the right ammunition as a duty gun or a personal defense weapon.

I'd like to add, not all of the gunwriters are full of BS. I had the privilege of meeting Elmer Keith many years ago, and he impressed me greatly, as have a few others. I've also read my share of utter nonsense. A good friend used to work with one of the big-name gunwriters, and some of the stories he has told about the man are hilarious.

Anyway, I'm glad my words make sense to you.


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 Post subject: Re: The FBI is going 9mm
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:04 pm • # 15 
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I'm done, Paul has to sling around insults once again because someone doesn't agree with him.

Hipshot, I'd be willing to continue this conversation with you via PM if you wish.


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 Post subject: Re: The FBI is going 9mm
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:27 am • # 16 
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Don't know how authentic this is, but I just saw it on another forum:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016 ... 7m-leaked/


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 Post subject: Re: The FBI is going 9mm
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:36 pm • # 17 
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And now.......
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016 ... epartment/


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