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 Post subject: Re: 000-1wt line?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:24 am • # 21 
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[quote="jangles"][quote="tc_sutton"]I had a txlf 00 I ran a long mono leader on it, preferred it over the rio trout lt dt 00wt


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 Post subject: Re: 000-1wt line?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:29 am • # 22 
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That the best you have junior ? lol


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 Post subject: Re: 000-1wt line?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:04 pm • # 23 
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knotjoe wrote:
Good link on furling, I'm kinda digesting just what this involves and if it could be used as an inner core under a braided sleeve. Working with a full 90' seems a bit daunting, but I would be looking more in the 40' foot range.

Find myself wondering how well fabric paints and fabric glues mate with these materials. I use them indoors and outdoors on many projects and their durability is astounding. Form of flexible weight in non-toxic formula and could help add some stiffness to some materials. Not sure as an outer surface, but around a furled core in braided sleeve, perhaps a useful material addition. Furled anything has some very friendly surfaces and pores to work with if coatings are used.


I think you’re on to something. I have considered using a loosely furled line as a core inside a Dacron braided backing but haven’t done it. The Eclectic Angler used to run a line-making forum, and one person complained about difficulties with the John Betts method, in that the nylon mono core would stretch more than the Dacron backing, causing it to come apart a bit.

Now, if you used a non-stretch material, like polyester thread or perhaps Spectra for furling, even without furling it very tight, then put it inside some Dacron backing, the problem mentioned above would be eliminated. Regarding the fabric paints or glues, as long as they’re compatible with polyester, polyethylene or nylon, why not?

Of course, which fiber to choose is also related to its specific gravity and whether you want the line to sink or float.


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 Post subject: Re: 000-1wt line?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:52 am • # 24 
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PampasPete wrote:
Now, if you used a non-stretch material, like polyester thread or perhaps Spectra for furling, even without furling it very tight, then put it inside some Dacron backing, the problem mentioned above would be eliminated.


The above idea is pretty much what I have dancing about in my mind, the one variation being use of PowerPro HollowAce in place of dacron. All the same line material, just in different forms with an additional additive around the furled portion. Mainly to engineer a working head, the backend could easily be spliced to another length of HollowAce of similar structured material for running line/backing use.

Simple form ideas, but the execution could be a dazzling array of experiments with some frustration. Hard to guess sizing of furled material to fit proper and seat within hollow core braid.

Another variation would be to furl smaller diameter hollow core with additive and then sheath with larger of same material. Benefit being the furled hollow core is much more conducive to accepting additive by virtue of it's structure. Any type of fabric paint or similar tends to have a bit of frictional grip so the aforementioned "Bett's Dilemma" might be eliminated. Plus, using same low/no stretch materials in construction would probably eliminate it to a large degree as well.


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 Post subject: Re: 000-1wt line?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:46 pm • # 25 
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knotjoe wrote:

Simple form ideas, but the execution could be a dazzling array of experiments with some frustration. Hard to guess sizing of furled material to fit proper and seat within hollow core braid.


That’s pretty much why I finally had to bite the bullet and buy a micrometer caliper and a precision pocket scale. This whole line-making deal involves a certain amount of measuring, weighing, calculating, empirical learning, and just plain guesswork.

Here’s an old thread that might be interesting.

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=9353&hilit=dyneema

And here’s a bit more relevant information.

Silk: Specific gravity is 1.25 to 1.34.
Nylon monofilament: Nylon; Specific Gravity: 1.15
Fluorocarbon: Specific Gravity 1.7-1.9.
Dacron (Polyester): Specific Gravity 1.3 to 1.4
Dyneema® or Spectra (Gel-spun PE fiber): Specific Gravity of 0.97
Polypropylene: Specific Gravity 0.90 – 0.91


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 Post subject: Re: 000-1wt line?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:44 am • # 26 
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PampasPete wrote:

Here’s an old thread that might be interesting.
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=9353&hilit=dyneema


Indeed it is a very interesting thread link and I’m surprised I haven’t come across it in the last few years of looking for “spectra/braid as flyline” in web searches. Then again, the topic usually gets search engine preference rank by use of braids in leaders and tippets so I guess it should be expected. Knew someone had to be exploring it as a mainline, Zigo had been.

We probably have much better options now in 2019 than what was available in 2014 in terms of materials, notably the forms which PE is made in now. Specific gravity and functional buoyancy of what I’ve been using is about perfect. Only drawback is the lack of body after long hours of use, it’s simply too limp between the reel/stripper guide and must be managed with considerable discipline.

Have been working with the SA Comp Nymph and while it’s handling at the reel end is great, it leaves much to be desired in other areas. It has considerable memory and really isn’t very sensitive by comparison to the 150#PowerPro. I use it more as an indicating line and it behaves itself quite well with an indicator on the leader. Without one, it’s very much an intermediate and will sink despite being labeled as floating. See below pic of use for memory…

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Not really a good Euro-nymph/swinger line and is actually pretty spooky compared to the darker spectra material. For bass and trout, sure, it’s irrelevant. I fish smaller streams for strange quarry in clear water the the SA Comp Nymph is a no-go for anything other than deep water indicator use on suckers.

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Switching back and forth between lines on shallow fish, the darker, low memory, more buoyant PowerPro is like a night and day difference in stealth presentation which is more than a little surprising to me, to say the least. No idea if it’s possible to get managable body to a line (not too limp) without excess memory/coiling on the water, but if it’s possible it’s probably with furled spectra (coated core) and sleeving. It’s the final handling characteristics of the line and behavior on the water that’s tricky for me, overall weight doesn’t seem so important as they all cast to a fairly decent degree at varying weights.


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 Post subject: Re: 000-1wt line?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:47 am • # 27 
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Got around to doing a very simple furl/twist on some PowerPro to get more familiar with behavior and attributes. First thing noticed is spectra reacts very differently to a twist/doubleback/release than any dubbing loops/furled loops I use in flytying. In fact, one has to coax it along and help it twist around itself on the release. The pleasure of using braid on reels and not having line twist problems is also present when you’re trying to get that “untwistback action” for furling. Gotta twist/spin it between your fingers to get even across any length. Not surprising, I guess, it’s a known quality of the material in general.

Fabric paint adheres and binds decently well for use on cores, but nothing very durable as seen in the below “split and pull” pic. I guess if several successive coatings were used, it would increase the tenacity of the coat and envelope the core better. Main idea here was to see how it grips the spectra which is pretty resistant to most gluing outside of very stiff adhesives. Not bad overall, as a core binder inside a sleeve it looks to have potential.

Image

The behavioral attributes of fabric paint coated spectra, OTH, are pretty out there when the properties are combined into one mass. Doesn’t have memory, per se, but has a strange quality of obedience. It’s lightly malleable into forms with the ability to straighten back out with very little encouragement. Appears to have decent increase in body without the elastic memory of typical flylines.

Image

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I like the slight increase in body and lack of limpness, no idea how this all plays out or is affected when used as a core in a completely assembled flyline. Likely to make a unique line, no idea if that means good or bad, but I’m gonna get a few spools of HollowAce for outer sleeve and keep playing with combinations.

Realistically, there also will need to be some static tests of line sitting on a reel for extended periods to see if this stuff can take a memory coil after being in the same positions long enough. Most lines do, but not sure about anything in this arena with coated braids. Once the coating is dried and done, it may be resistant to memory and go along with the typical spectra attributes while adding more weight and more body.


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 Post subject: Re: 000-1wt line?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:35 pm • # 28 
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Fine time to dredge this monster back up to the surface for another season of explorations. Yes indeed!

My latest endeavor involved the hybrid level line concept and sleeving of core materials into hollow braid. Two products used are PowerPro Hollow-Ace 40lb (spectra) and P-Line Hydrofloat which is a spectra core/PVC coated line popular with the centerpin crowd. I have both 30lb and 50 lb Hydrofloat and made two lines, both sizes provide excellent body and buoyancy for a core material. Essentially, a Spectra core line with a thermal fused PVC outer coating which can be used by itself as flyline, but benefits greatly in added weight and durability when oversleeved in a hollowcore braid. Think “50 foot topshot connection with loops on each end” and you get the idea. Same way saltwater anglers connect mono leaders to hollowcore mainlines, albeit considerably longer with more serves.

Image

Basics of the making…

Typical DaHo needles are way short, kinda expensive, and iffy on the connection for 50’ runs. I like a few feet of spinnerbait wire, in this case .024” to snake through the Hollow-Ace 40lb. Pointy or flush cut on the wire end is bad to impossible, rounded as seen below is the way to go. IOW, the blunt DaHo style tip to open the braid without poke-throughs and fiber snagging.

Image

Other end requires security to avoid disconnections when deep into the braid, thus a smooth attachment and secure glue job is in order.

Image

PowerPro is impressive in quality/consistency for topshotting and I ran into no snags or anomalies in 100’ worth of running core. Simply loaded the product onto the threader wire rig until full, and slid the Hollow-Ace over the junction and onto the Hydrofloat. A bit repetitive over 50’ sections, but it goes surprisingly fast.

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Once sleeved, I put a serve of several wraps (single layer) of some tying thread and lightly coated these with CA glue every 10’. First run on this and I used two clamps to stretch the sections while applying serves, but I think it could be done just fine with a few slipknots to hold positions. In fact, for the end loops I did just that with “bobber stop” knot made from heavier flyline backing. Just tighten the knot, slide to required tension, install serve, then (carefully) razor bobber stop knot off line. Same effect as more elaborate stretch-clamp rigs used by saltwater anglers, just easier in smaller spaces. Serves are to hold sleeve material in position on core as to avoid slippage and migration of material (no bunching of hollowcore braid).

Below is just some snaps of the unusual methods I used, as stated above there are easier ways to serve. I don’t think I even needed to impale through both materials as with the needle pic, just a simple serve wrap there will hold securely. Heck, nail knots hold leaders on just fine so it doesn’t require as much as I did.

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Stripped a bit of the PVC off both ends of the Hydrofloat to expose the core fibers and formed a loop with it running through the Hollow-Ace. Whipped, glued, and coated with some green fabric paint as seen below.

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Above pic is the reel end (reversible level line) and the fished end after a full season is below. Fabric paint wore a bit, but the structural integrity is great and still holding strong.

Image

Specs on 50lb core version is a diameter of .030”-.033” and a weight of 5.5 grams over 50’. Flyline lingo puts it at around 85 grains, the usual 30’ weight about 51 grains. The 30 lb core has a diameter of .025”-.028” and a weight of 4 grams over 50’. So 62 grains with the 30’ measure being around 37 grains. My mic measures are on a compressible material and the weights are rather approximate with a not-so-great postal scale. Both were using 40lb Hollow-Ace so the sleeve is the constant in terms of weight.

Lines cast great and carry flies impressively due to materials they are made from so traditional notions of grain weight and rod matching are kinda dubious at this point. The low diameter and natural buoyancy of these materials in combination are an entirely different animal versus the typical flylines I use on heavier rods. After a season of fishing, color me impressed with both the performance and future potential of the materials used.

Props to the original work of John Betts and Michael Hackney on this concept, their original sleeving concept for flyline construction is better than ever when done with modern fibers and core materials. One could conceivably build a low diameter, permafloat stealth flyline WITH an internal taper of various materials to fine tune flight and turnover. One need only design and connect the core sections then sleeve into a near indestructible spectra braid and it’s all smoothed and as slick as it gets. Doesn’t really need dressings, either.


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 Post subject: Re: 000-1wt line?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:52 am • # 29 
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Knot Joe, thanks for dredging up the monster, with detailed photos no less.

It looks like using Power Pro Hollow Ace spectra line for sleeving material is the key, and then one can use different materials for the core. Even the cheapest spectra braided lines, or polyester thread for that matter would work depending on the taper and weight desired. Unfortunately for me personally it’s not a viable option, just because when I buy such things from the USA or the UK they become two or three times more expensive due to shipping costs and possibly import taxes. Nevertheless, thanks a lot for such a contribution to our collective memory.


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 Post subject: Re: 000-1wt line?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:22 pm • # 30 
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PampasPete wrote:
Unfortunately for me personally it’s not a viable option, just because when I buy such things from the USA or the UK they become two or three times more expensive due to shipping costs and possibly import taxes.


I simply used the branded products discussed above because they were readily available in my country. There’s quite a few hollowcore spectra lines available around the planet and I’m thinking they’d work just as well. Some differences in strand count, braid/weave or whatever, but the concept and material is mostly the same.

Ideal way to buy? Go to a tackle shop and have ‘em run off 100-200 ft from a bulk reel filler spool, they do it all the time for saltwater guys making topshots with hollowcore. I live inland and thus found it faster to buy boxed spools, if I shopped around I probably could have found the HollowAce somewhere in a shop and bought less yardage.

So here’s the amusing punchline to the whole project, rounded up slightly in US dollars.

P-Line Hydrofloat-150 yards @ $15.00
PowerPro Hollow-Ace 100 yards @ $25.00
Total material cost per 50’ level flyline is about $6.00.

Yeah, really…under ten bucks to do what I did in the most expensive and inefficient way possible because that’s how most of my projects are done.:lol Admittedly, I have flytying stuff and various threads/glues and that helps, but the actual material cost of making a sleeved line with hollowcore spectra is remarkably low. Even with inflated shipping or taxes, it might still be fairly doable even with the out-of-country products. Run different material as a core and all one has to do is get a hold of 50’-100’ or so of hollowcore spectra line.

While it's almost never my intent to be so frugal about anything fishing related, sometimes it accidentally happens anyway. This is one of those times.


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 Post subject: Re: 000-1wt line?
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 9:07 pm • # 31 
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I fish an original generation Sage Quiet Double Taper 0 wt on my TXL-00.
I have used a 00 and a 1 in the same line and it seems that there are only subtle differences in the casting. The TXL is a bit forgiving at least with those lines and the slight weight variances. I looked back at some old posts and Sage stated that those lines were in the 55 grain weight for a 0. I would not be afraid to try a 1 weight line on that rod as the spec for a 1 weight is 60 grains.


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 Post subject: Re: 000-1wt line?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:34 am • # 32 
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I used too dyneema-spectra like an ultralight level line, with red mucillin or vaseline oil, beacuse even if it's lighter that water and, in theory, water repellent, I found that after a while it tends to sink : it's similar to silk lines, very soft. You can weight 30feet treated and understand with AFTMA scales what is the more appropriate diameter for you. And it's really cheap.
But if you prefer commercial fly lines because they don't need to be greased all times and because they are a little more rigid and help you in cast I found that using a wf1 mounting it on the reel in reverse, then using the back running line to fish, it's the lighter 1wt line I found in commercial lines. It's a level line but if you use a tapered leader it's not a problem.
About the Sage Qdt that I tried in comparison with the above solutions I wrote this post time ago, if you like
viewtopic.php?f=68&t=10958&p=88308&hilit=dyneema#p88308

roberto


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