It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:28 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Go to page Previous  1, 2   Page 2 of 2   [ 37 posts ] New Topic Add Reply
Author Message
 Post subject: 0 & 1wt Rod Makers.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:24 pm • # 21 
User avatar
Administrator

Joined: 11/18/08
Posts: 3185
Location: Texas
Ha! Define "load"? :-) That's my point--you may not think it's loaded until it bends 1/3 of the way down and I might think it's loaded with only 1/8 of the rod flexed. Why is my *opinion* of "loaded" better than yours or yours better than mine?

Seems like CCS can tell you how much a rod flexes under an arbitrary weight but I don't believe it can tell you that the rod designer's idea of optimal flexing or loading for that specific rod is right or wrong.


Top
  
 Post subject: 0 & 1wt Rod Makers.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:56 pm • # 22 
User avatar
Hero Member

Joined: 12/22/11
Posts: 1602
Well, let's talk about the TFO Series 1 (Sig. Series) 9' 6wt. In my hands, this rod requires at least a 7wt line to load on short casts of less than 45'. The CCS information rates it from 7.03-7.53 with an action angle of 69-72 meaning it is a fast rod, and is underrated. I wish they would rate these rods honestly. This rod is only a 6wt if you want to be able to lay out a full fly line. Just another example of marketing. The best caster can throw the most line, right? The rod that you can cast the furthest with is the one for you, right? Wrong. Tell that to the makers of these SUPERDUPERFASTCASTAMILEACTION rods.


Top
  
 Post subject: 0 & 1wt Rod Makers.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:33 pm • # 23 
User avatar
Newbie

Joined: 02/08/09
Posts: 43
Until the end of last year, Cabela's made a 1wt in their Clear Creek line of rods. It listed for just $99 but was on sale many times for much less than that. I personally took advantage of one of those sales to get mine. But Cabela's ditch the Clear Creek rods for their new line of TQR rods in 2009. Unfortunately, they don't offer a 1wt anymore. The TFO Finese rod might be the least expensive alternative if you're looking for a 1wt unless you could find a Clear Creek rod on the used market somewhere. I haven't cast one of the TFO Finese rods but in handling one at a fly fishing show, it seemed closer to a 2wt than a 1wt in comparison to other 1wts....not a professional judgement or measure by any means though, it's just a swag on my part.


Top
  
 Post subject: 0 & 1wt Rod Makers.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:53 pm • # 24 
User avatar
Administrator

Joined: 11/18/08
Posts: 3185
Location: Texas
But the CCS stuff is statically measured and casting is very dynamic. If I take the same 6 wt rod that you mention and put a 6 wt line on it and increase the acceleration of my casting stroke (a little more power more quickly) that rod might load just fine with a 6 wt line for me. It's not just the line weight that loads the rod--it's also the force of the acceleration--I think this is why you can take a rod with no line at all and with a powerful casting motion cause it to flex fairly deeply into the blank. It's also the reason you can't wiggle a rod to determine it's line wt.

If you watch Don and I cast the same rod, with the same weight line, and the same amount of line out, you'll see the rod flex differently. Don has a lot of finesse and is very smooth where I, being used to fast graphite, use a quicker more powerful flick it out there kind of stroke. Don's style works better for slower action rods and especially bamboo (or if you want a very gentle presentation), but mine works great for faster rods.

When Les and I were trying Don's 5 wt Banty our loops were very different. All three of us could cast the rod very well but Les's loops were textbook perfect where mine might have been a little tighter but weren't nearly as consistent and Don's were great but a little more open with a slower line-speed. Same rod and line--different flex. I had my 0 wt Dan Craft during this same outing and Don tried it and said he couldn't feel it load and to me it feels very slow and almost overlined. Don would probably like it more with a 1 wt line but I think it's almost too slow with a 0 wt.

If people are used to faster action rods then it's highly likely that some of the rods that forum members feel are rated a line weight too low by the manufacturer will work just fine for these guys at the listed line weight just because of their casting stroke. It seems that the majority of forum members here lean towards the medium to slower action rods as opposed to fast to faster action. Absolutely nothing wrong with that--it just colors their opinion of any rod they pick up. Good or bad I think the majority of fly fishermen lean toward faster rods but I have noticed trends the other way now--like major manufacturers coming back out with slower glass rods and marketing them at high-end prices (Scott), and the resurgence of glass in general.

8 or 9 years ago I wrapped a nice 6'9" Fisher 5 wt blank after years of using nothing but Sage and Loomis rods. When I was done with it I thought it was an absolute dog. I could not make the thing work--it was a noodle! For a while I fished it with a 3 wt line just because I built it and I felt like I had to fish it. Eventually I just stuck it in the closet where it stayed for at least 7 years. Last year, after I got my Orvis 1 wt and Dan Craft 0 wt and discovered some of the fun of medium action rods, I strung the Fisher up with a 5 wt line and thought it casted beautifully (ask Les). The only thing that changed was my casting stroke. It was the same rod and same line weight.


Top
  
 Post subject: 0 & 1wt Rod Makers.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:14 pm • # 25 
User avatar
Administrator

Joined: 11/18/08
Posts: 3185
Location: Texas
dhoover8448 wrote:
The TFO Finese rod might be the least expensive alternative if you're looking for a 1wt unless you could find a Clear Creek rod on the used market somewhere. I haven't cast one of the TFO Finese rods but in handling one at a fly fishing show, it seemed closer to a 2wt than a 1wt in comparison to other 1wts....not a professional judgement or measure by any means though, it's just a swag on my part.
I'd really like to try one of the TFO 1 weights. TFO is just down the road from me but no one in Dallas carried the 1 wt last time I checked, and when I called TFO and asked if I could drive down to their offices and try one out they said they weren't really equiped for that. Very nice people though. I wish someone here would just breakdown and buy one and let us know how it is! Image

BTW, I have a 3 wt TQR and really like it but it is a pretty fast rod.


Last edited by jdub on Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
  
 Post subject: 0 & 1wt Rod Makers.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:55 am • # 26 
User avatar
Administrator

Joined: 11/17/08
Posts: 4828
First let me explain my last post. The Elkhorn 1wt was published once on the CCS database. The ERN was determined by that one person as 2.02, and the AA is 66. It's not likely that two different testers will come up with the same exact numbers due to variances in the way they each do the test. That's why I like to see at least 3 test results, then average those to get a number to kind of go by.
Now, the standard for this test is to replicate 30 feet of line out. That's what this test is comparing. It gives the rod a number to compare others to. Once an individual finds out what number combo suits him or her, we can then select the blanks that will work for us.
Now, for a 1wt, the CCS standard for a 1wt ERN is 1.5. The Elkhorn coming in at 2.02 makes it a one and a half weight rod. The average person won't be able to tell the difference between an ERN of 1.5 and 2.0.
In the end, one person might prefer to cast a 1wt rod with an ERN of 1.00, that's what feels right for them with a 1wt line, will another may feel that 2.5 is the way to go.
I haven't discussed AA, that just brings more to the argument.
Now for me, I tend to prefer an ERN of 2.5 or so for a 3wt rod regardless of the AA number unless the AA is above 65. Then I would end up over lining it more to slow it down a bit.

Sorry for being long winded, and if it doesn't make any sense then disregard.

J.


Top
  
 Post subject: 0 & 1wt Rod Makers.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:47 am • # 27 
User avatar
Hero Member

Joined: 12/22/11
Posts: 2056
The devil is in the details, isn't it? I think the definition is explained on the CCS site. The rodbuilding forum has a link. But yes, they selected the standard. Not that far fetched. The rod must deflect to load, so using that variable you will be in the ballpark as to the overall performance of the rod. If you deflect past a certain point the physics breaks down, so there is an outer parameter. I do not know where within the theoretically window the ERN is designed to fall. Should re-read the theory, I guess. The AA [action angle?] adds a bit of the nuance you are missing with the ERN. Don


Top
  
 Post subject: 0 & 1wt Rod Makers.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:01 am • # 28 
User avatar
Hero Member

Joined: 12/22/11
Posts: 2056
You are using the system for its intended purpose J. You know how your casting style equates to the ERN and AA measurement. If we all had the CCS data for our rods, we could also draw some general conclusions. Then, with data available for a rod you don't yet own, you can extrapolate some conclusions before you purchase. Like Jerry and most of you, I cast a bunch of lines until I find the one that works. But if I would take the time the CCS the rod first, I could save a little time. Don


Top
  
 Post subject: 0 & 1wt Rod Makers.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:24 am • # 29 
User avatar
Administrator

Joined: 11/18/08
Posts: 3185
Location: Texas
I'm sure there's more than "a bit of a nuance" that I'm missing Image and I absolutely agree that the CCS system can give you an idea about the characteristics of a rod in relation to other rods.

I think where I continue to struggle is in hearing people pass judgment on a rod that they've never touched much less cast. "This 3 wt is really a 4 wt as shown by it's CCS numbers".... that type of thing. I probably still don't understand the system properly but isn't it possible that the rod designer was aiming for a *very* fast 3 wt and that's what he got? And that someone that likes slow rods will not be able to get it to load with a 3 wt line, but the same rod & line might work perfectly for a fast rod guy?

And I realize J did *not* pass judgement in the case of the Elkhorn but stated the numbers in a way that makes sense to me--in relation to another rod, as I think you did Don. The Elkhorn is probably faster than your Dan Craft as shown by the numbers.

It does seem like a useful tool--if you don't like fast rods then don't buy something with CCS numbers at the high end for a given line weight. If you don't like slow rods then stay away from the low end. I just don't think you can declare the line weight until you've cast it with a few lines and even then it's *only* the line weight that works for you--not necessarily anyone else.

(And this whole discussion is leaving out one HUGE variable--the line make and model. Many of us have experienced a rod that works great with a certain 3 wt line but doesn't work well at all with a different 3 wt line (substitute any line wt here).


Top
  
 Post subject: 0 & 1wt Rod Makers.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:54 am • # 30 
User avatar
Hero Member

Joined: 12/22/11
Posts: 2056
The line companies play the same game the rod companies do. Between the two of them, it is a wonder that beginners can cast at all! Part of the game, as Andy stated, is to trick you into thinking you can cast a given rod a mile because the rod maker deliberately underrated the rod figuring you would aerialize 50 feet of line and still have reserve power for a fast casting stroke and a haul. Viola! Miracle rod! Now you can make the argument that the maker made all the correct assumptions and thus has accurately rated the rod. But a standard needs to be just that, or we cannot make the necessary extrapolations to our particular casting styles or fishing needs. Don


Top
  
 Post subject: 0 & 1wt Rod Makers.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:07 am • # 31 
User avatar
Administrator

Joined: 11/17/08
Posts: 4828
I think that we can all agree that the CCS system is there to make measurements so that we compare, with numbers, how rods MIGHT work for you. What the system does try to do, is what rod and line manufacturers refuse to do, and that is to try to make sense of all the hoopla over rods. The system certainly has it's place, and it's helped me see the light so to speak whereas before I started using the system, I was in the dark. I had to go on sites and ask how a rod cast and performed, and I would get 100 different answers. That just didn't work for me. In most cases I can't cast or handle a blank that I may be interested in. With the published CCS numbers I can at least get into the ball park I want to be in with a potential blank, and go from there.
Maybe we should start a sticky thread and publish our own CCS numbers on our own rods.

J.

EDIT: I forgot to add something here. What we should all do, is to take that one rod that we really like, and feel that fits our style best, and run the CCS test on it. Now for you, those should be the numbers that you compare everything else to. Like I said earlier, I like my 3wts to have an ERN in the 2's. I also know that I like my 2wt's in the very low 2's or mid to high 1's. So obviously a rod, no matter what line weight I select, I'll want to be one line weight under the line I'll actually use. I don't like super fast rods either, and I can handle an AA up to about 65, which is medium fast, any faster than that and it's not gonna work for me.


Top
  
 Post subject: 0 & 1wt Rod Makers.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:40 am • # 32 
User avatar
Administrator

Joined: 11/18/08
Posts: 3185
Location: Texas
Quote:
What we should all do, is to take that one rod that we really like, and feel that fits our style best, and run the CCS test on it.
I like that idea J. My problem is I like almost every rod I try (ask Don). Image They're all over the map when it comes to actions and I can't cast all of them well but if I concentrate I can cast them good enough. I just haven't picked up that many rods that I thought were dogs (and even when I think they are I can be convinced otherwise).

A few months ago I thought I might be transitioning from fast rods to slower rods but then I went back and started playing with my fastest rods and they're still a blast to cast. But then so are the slower ones. I think I'm a lost cause ;-) It also makes me think that there are a ton of good rods out there in all price ranges.


Top
  
 Post subject: 0 & 1wt Rod Makers.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:06 pm • # 33 
User avatar
Hero Member

Joined: 12/22/11
Posts: 1602
Jerry, not everyone can be saved...some of us are just doomed. I have a problem with companies that market a super fast 5wt as a 5wt though. Case in point are some of the Sage rods, the TCR and now the TCX. No way in heck are they the marked weight, but you can throw some line with them.

I am a lot like J here, in that I like a full/mid flex rod. In the Orvis speak, that would range from probably a 3.5 to a 6.5 in their scale. Any faster than that and I find myself unable to feel a rod load on short casts with the rated line. One other thing; fly line choices. If you fish fast rods and find yourself using a GPX, Grand, etc, you are not using a 5wt line. I don't like lines that are not the true weight and that is part of why I overline the hell out of a fast rod.

Another example here. I cast a 9' 5wt TiCr last summer at the lake and the guy fishing it had a WF5F Rio line on it. It was olive in color so I am guessing it was the Windcutter, but that doesn't matter here does it? I tried making a presentation to a rising bluegill at about 20' and honestly, I doubt the tip of the rod flexed more than three inches in any direction. Well, the line speed put the fish down, and after that, I was just wanting to see where I felt the rod load and before I know it I am laying out 60 feet of line and mumbling to myself, "Damned Korean made thunderstick." I finally felt it load about two casts later when I hauled on the backcast.

My point here is there needs to be a standard and there isn't one.


Top
  
 Post subject: 0 & 1wt Rod Makers.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:30 pm • # 34 
User avatar
Administrator

Joined: 11/18/08
Posts: 3185
Location: Texas
flyflingerandy1 wrote:
I was just wanting to see where I felt the rod load and before I know it I am laying out 60 feet of line and mumbling to myself, "Damned Korean made thunderstick." I finally felt it load about two casts later when I hauled on the backcast.

My point here is there needs to be a standard and there isn't one.
I agree with your point Andy, but at the same time I bet there are a lot of guys out there, that because of their different casting style, could load that same rod with 30' of line out.

A lot of it too, as we all probably know, is just using the correct rod for the conditions. I'm not going to take my RPL out if I know I'm only going to be casting 20' all day, just like I won't take my Dan Craft if I know I'll be needing to make 50' or 60' casts in windy conditions with a lot of mending. You can probably make the rods work in these conditions but you probably won't have much fun doing it.

The guys buying "thundersticks" usually know what they're getting into and are looking for a fast rod, just like the guys buying Dan Craft 0 weights won't be doing a lot of whining because they can't double-haul a 70' cast with a #10 beadhead Image


Top
  
 Post subject: 0 & 1wt Rod Makers.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:50 pm • # 35 
User avatar
Hero Member

Joined: 12/22/11
Posts: 1602
jdub wrote:
flyflingerandy1 wrote:
I was just wanting to see where I felt
the rod load and before I know it I am laying out 60 feet of line and mumbling to myself, "Damned Korean made thunderstick." I finally felt it load
about two casts later when I hauled on the backcast.




My point here is there needs to be a standard and there isn't one.
I agree with your point Andy, but at the same time I bet there are a lot of guys out there, that because of their different casting style, could load that same rod with 30' of line out.

A lot of it too, as we all probably know, is just using the correct rod for the conditions. I'm not going to take my RPL out if I know I'm only going to be casting 20' all day, just like I won't take my Dan Craft if I know I'll be needing to make 50' or 60' casts in windy conditions with a lot of mending. You can probably make the rods work in these conditions but you probably won't have much fun doing it.

The guys buying "thundersticks" usually know what they're getting into and are looking for a fast rod, just like the guys buying Dan Craft 0 weights won't be doing a lot of whining because they can't double-haul a 70' cast with a #10 beadhead Image


You have a point, however, marketing says that if a rod is advertised as the longest casting rod in its price range, it will sell. Well, when you can throw a WF5F 90 feet on a true 7wt, that rod will sell as a 5wt. I just want them to adhere to some standard of measure that lets one know what they are buying if the local shop does not carry that model in stock.


Top
  
 Post subject: 0 & 1wt Rod Makers.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:58 pm • # 36 
User avatar
Jr. Member

Joined: 02/13/09
Posts: 78
Some interesting reading here - thanks for all the input!

I've learned quite a bit about the quantifying of fly rods - though I'll admit straight up, that much of it has gone right over my head - ha ha!

For my part - I have "slower rods" (a 4wt Sage SLT, for example) and "faster rods" (a 5wt St. Croix Legend Elite, for example) - and love the way each of them casts - and appreciate each of them for their individual strengths.
I tend to use quite a variety of "tactics" in a years trout fishing - from stream fishing with the dry - to hammering out a Chironomid under an indicator on a 20+' leader - to slinging a type 5 full sink into a 15 knot breeze over a lake shoal - to blasting a 4wt 11'9'' spey rod out into the spring freshet in search of fry hungry Cutthroat.

Each tactic requires its own unique set of tools - and no one type of action, fast or slow - will work well over the whole spectrum of circumstance.


Top
  
 Post subject: 0 & 1wt Rod Makers.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:36 am • # 37 
User avatar
Newbie

Joined: 02/11/09
Posts: 23
Cabela's also dropped their Sl1 rod blanks from their tacklecraft catalog. I have used these blanks to build several rods---my latest had been last year when I built a 10 ft. 8wt. for a standard Salmon and Steelhead combo. I had intentions of building a Switch rod with the SL1 but alas they ain't no mo. So I'm researching for an 11'6" blank with a double hand grip for a switch rod---got to build it before July or buy a TFO.Image


Top
  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  

Go to page Previous  1, 2   Page 2 of 2   [ 37 posts ] New Topic Add Reply

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


- OurBoard Support -